Discussion: 2011 Canal Cities O Festival Early Deadline Today for mail-in!

I don't know how many people have or would want to use it, but the mail-in early registration deadline is today!

The online (preferred) registration deadline is one week away - June 30th.

...especially since we don't even have a postal system.

Not to be snide, but any chance of CNYO posting more detailed information on the Classic Champs than they currently have up? It's borderline unreasonable to start raising prices before you've published event details... and we're only six weeks out from the championships. This isn't quite enough yet.

Nice event sponsor.

Agree with feet. I haven't seen any info. I plan to sign up, at least for the first weekend, but this is the first I've heard about it.

Point taken - I've contacted them - try to get something.

As meet director for the CNYO portion of the Festival, I apologize for the lack of info.
As a small club, our volunteers have been busy with our Regaine and local meets.
If you have specific questions please email me directly. I will post more details by early next week - before early regs deadline.

what details would you like to know about the meet.

Along those lines, I'd also like to know a little more about the $18 (!!) dinner for 13 and older. I'm trying to get some of our juniors to come to CCOF & while I hate to skip a US Champs dinner, that's just too much unless it is something really extraordinary (and probably even then).

I really appreciate all the new info about the junior camp, but I'm also having trouble getting the families to commit, at least partially because there are a lot of other cost unknowns (will junior camp include all meals, is the amusement park included; if not how much, etc...)

I'm going to leave discussions about the Champs to CNYO and we do expect an update from them as Pete mentions above. On the dinner cost - only because I've worked extensively on getting everything consolidated - it was based on what the third party vendor offered as the initial vendor was unavailable. (And it's perfectly acceptable to skip the dinner, please don't make that a deciding factor;-)

I've tried to make the website as understandable as possible with respect to expenses, and if something is unclear, please ask. You bring up two aspects.

Junior meal costs: It's been suggested that the juniors will take a collection to cover breakfasts and lunches. The convention is not covering these expenses, but at the same time, if we are planning a morning coffee & bagel sort of spread for the adults (and we are), we'll offer the same sort of funds to the juniors to get some snacks.

The convention is covering Monday's dinner at Mendon. The convention is covering the base of Tuesday's potluck picnic at Durand. (beverages, charcoal for the grill, and probably some amount of hot dogs). We expect the Juniors at both of those events.

Seabreeze is not included - there's no way we could swing that on a price of $40 for the entire week;-) Information on the park is here: http://www.seabreeze.com/ I'm hesitant to mention this but if we hear about a significant demand for the park, we can get group rate tickets. But we need a couple dozen, and the funds for that will have to be committed, there isn't any return policy for that sort of thing. In the end we decided we probably couldn't keep all of those arrangements moving properly to pull it off.

Convention price includes:
- Welcome social Sunday night
- 4 mornings of sessions
- 4 afternoons of sprints and training
- Night-O, Bike-O, Canoe-O events
- Dinner Monday night
- AGM Thursday with social to follow

And if you still think that the value is questionable, but are otherwise "in" for both the Champs and A meet in Buffalo, "The Whole Darned Thing" makes the entire week 10% less. Instead of $115 for the two A meets, it's $140 for the whole week. And for that $25, you can go to the dinner Monday and stay for the Night-O and skip the rest of the week if it doesn't interest you;-)

But really, one registrant wanted to find time to visit the Erie Canal, and I had to suggest playing hookey for the part of the week that least interested them...

Map sections? Terrain notes? Photos? Anything? I have never visited that part of the world, it's a long way to travel and expensive entries for a weekend. Give me something to convince me it's worth it. Apologies if this has since appeared and I'm just being a dummy at finding it.

Since Steve didn't post the price (thanks for the link, though), here is some Seabreeze price info. It looks like the basic "ride & slide" gate is $25.99. There is a $3 discount for buying tickets in advance online. The website also mentioned "special offers" but I didn't take time to browse.

While I certainly didn't expect the convention / camp to cover this admission fee, if you're billing the activity as part of the junior camp, it is important that families have some idea what it will cost. Never having heard of Sea Breeze, I had no idea if this was a $10 or $15 proposition or $25 or $50 or more. And to the parents that makes a big difference. At least one kid is applying for a grant from his club for the event entry, travel, & lodging, and how much he'll have to spend on extras is a big deal.

As to the events, the "whole darned thing" entry for all events and convention looks like a great value. There's quite a variety of terrain through the week. Letchworth (midweek) is one of my favorite venues with areas of complex small knolls and depressions. To Becks, I think you will find it worthwhile. Many of these areas have been used before, so perhaps old maps are on Route Gadget or in Peter Gagarin's collection... anyone have a link(s)?

I'll try to work with Steve to get some map clips of each of the convention week venues posted.

Hopefully BFLO and CNYO can get clips of the A-meet venues posted if that hasn't been done already.

I definitely can't do the week unfortunately, which does sound like great value. Coming up for just a weekend is distinctly less good value, through no fault of the organisers!

Where is the US Champs dinner being held?

Here's what I emailed Becky about the terrain for the US champs:
It's a new map (it was used for a rogaine before off a modified topo, but that doesn't count). However, it's the same basic area as the 2008 North American champs.

This was the middle area, about 5 miles northeast:
http://www.petergagarin.org/2008/20080927%28naocmi...
And this was the long area, about 5 miles southeast:
http://www.petergagarin.org/2008/20080928%28naoclo...
Relative locations: (A is the middle area from 2008, B is the parking
for the 2011 meet, C is the long area from 2008).
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=County+Route+22&...

And here are some images of ROC maps

• from the 2008 US middle and relay champs:
  
  • Letchworth West
  
  
  • Mendon Ponds US relays 2008
  
  
• from the 2009 US sprint champs
  
  • Another part of Mendon Ponds
  
  
  • Another part again

Valerie Meyer generously hosts Routegadget for ROC: you can find club maps there, including Webster, the old map of Highland Park for the trail-O champs, along with several others.

To follow feet's map info - I had a thought to doing "postcards" from the courses, and asking for map segments to post, but that just didn't work out. feet's images are better than anything I could come up with.

CNYO is doing a fresh map of their terrain, and will not be making a map preview available. BFLO has a map preview option as part of the registration.

I do not know the specific location of the CNYO dinner, hopefully that will be in Pete's update.

And I am just thinking of this - Letchworth Park will have a $5 (?) per vehicle entrance fee from NYS. Car pooling would be good, and I don't believe we've mentioned that in the past. I'll update the web site and make sure Rick includes that information.

I think not making a map preview available is really poor advertising. A couple of inches square is not enough to give the game away, but can greatly influence my decision to enter an event. In this case, it seems the nearby maps can be used, but at Moreau for example, the old map was entirely unrepresentative of the absolute awesomeness to be found at the top of the hill. More maps please!

Although... the wonder on turning over the map the first day at Moreau still brings a smile to my face.

That is true! A revelation!

@Becks - I might suggest then that supplying a map of Moreau before the event (the old unrepresentative one) would have been a dis-service... [And I wonder how often Moreau might come up in the recently added convention seminar "Should we host WOC in 2018?" ;-]

But - we have added maps of all convention sprint/training locations, Night-O, and the MTB-O:
http://www.2011ccof.org/home/convention-informatio...

I certainly hope Moreau doesn't come up too often in relation to WOC 2018, and nor does Laramie, Camp Ripley, and anything else stupendously awesome that is more than 45 minutes away from where big scheduled planes land and media types hang out. Unless a WOC is being planned as a self-congratulatory extravaganza, in which case I'm not a part of it.

(please feel free to move to an appropriate topic.)

Small pieces of Moreau -- the newly mapped part -- were posted on the US Champs event website, along with some photos.

Those maplets were enough to indicate the terrain was much different from that on the original map, without diminishing the reaction to seeing that the whole area was like that.

@Tundra/Desert: Are there any areas that you think would fit the "business" criteria, and still be WOC-worthy -- or at least more so than the Norway WOC was reputed to be?

Ward Pound Ridge!

I'm sorry to have hijacked my own thread - yes - come to the convention and discuss your opinions on this topic in person;-)

CNYO has been busy on their site - check out:
http://cnyo.us.orienteering.org/2011/html/2011_US_...

Thanks Steve for posting the linked to the updated CNYO web site for the CCOF Classic Champs. I'm hoping this answers most questions, if not please contact me directly.
As for map samples - we will end out copies of the Klondike map from the North Americans. It is very similar to this years map except Happy Valley has a few more swampy/wet areas.
One note for parents/ white and yellow course runners - on day one there will be a double bus ride to their start. It will be separate from the regular start and it will have it's own finish area. If parents want to drive to that start, we will make exceptions. Please contact me for details or talk to us at registration. Please allow time for this if you are also competing. Please make a note on you registration. Same start and finish for all on day 2.

Guy: yes. A repeat of Harriman, for example, would be a far better proposition than the middle of intricate nowhere.

I doubt there would be many/any people re-running at Harriman, and there are some extremely fond memories for it back it Europe - it's pretty legendary in fact. I am sure people would happily flock back.

And back on topic...who's travelling to the event from WCOC land? I wouldn't want to go by myself, and haven't got the time for a proper long weekend style thingie with Rob.

One note for parents/ white and yellow course runners - on day one there will be a double bus ride to their start

this is the kind of handy info we should have known before we registered.. but I wasn't about to pass up the early entry savings waiting for it to come out. I guess we'll have to figure it out when we get there....

@pete13: How is the Sat W/Y start a double bus ride? First one with everybody else to the O-B start and then a second to W/Y?

In fact, there has been a revision of plans for the day 1 white and yellow start and finish. They are now going to be using the same start and finish as the advanced courses. This has involved a bit of streamered sections to link non-connecting trails, but we think the kids will enjoy the courses and that it will make the logistics more convenient for the families.

While Vlad may not consider Syracuse a major airport, it is well within an hour of the venue. It may not have quite the discount air fares he is looking for, but it is a city of a population about 100,000 larger than any place I would personally like to live for an extended period of time. and the airport is about 2/3 of the distance directly along the fastest route from my house to the venue, which I have been visiting very regularly over the last couple of months. I hope that it is only from the standpoint of a WOC and not from the point of view of a US A-meet that he thinks the immediate presence of a more major airport is essential.

Sorry for the information delay. Most of the info people have been requesting should be up on the website. Course lengths are about standard classic distance with blue being a tad longer Sundays course is 13.4 k. The terrain has very minimal hills but there is a lot of little contour detail. There are a bunch of small to large swamps and depressions which divide the map up. There are some thick areas where logging has been done and some thick pine areas. There furn cover in a lot of the forest which makes it hard to see footing. However it is still pretty fast and there are some very nice open woods to run through. I figured a blue runner having a good day should be able to run at least 7.5min per k. Reds and greens, 8-8.5 min per k. The map is completely new and has just been finalized due to all the rain we have been having. The map is about 30 min north of the Syracuse airport 40 from the city itself. Its a straight shot and very easy to find.

CORRECTION
In case you missed Eric's post above - with some revisions, the white and yellow courses on Day ! will have the same start and finish as the rest of the courses - no 'double' busing.

I was figurative with big planes land. And, my comment was about Moreau, not Syracuse. For the record, I don't think metro Syracuse presents enough nearby population density for a WOC, either.

I’m not disagreeing with you Vladimir, but upon what do you base this assertion? On all the WOCs that have gone before? Were they all close to a large urban population center? (Asking so I don’t have to do an iota of my own thinking/research.) I expect that not all could have been—so this (urban population center) does not seem to be a WOC prerequisite.

Instead, maybe you think it is desirable in that such proximity would produce some desired results or exposure? This is just wild conjecture. We got as close as we are likely to get (to where big media types hang out, e.g., Madison Avenue) with WOC 93 and what happened? Sure, things are different now (right?) but maybe they aren’t so different. Let’s think about some counterfactuals here. Demonstrate to me that it makes a difference somehow rather than intimating that this is axiomatic.

Having some non-negligible population of orienteers strikes me as being way more important than having nearby a large population of non-orienteers.

No difference between 93 and now in terms of expected exposure in the US and return on effort.

OUSA is 1 year into an overly ambitious 5-year plan, with very little forward progress, rapidly diminishing financial reserves and zero to negative available labor to apply to even that effort. Anyone who thinks we can and should switch gears now to put effort into a WOC2018 bid should be applying more of their effort to the SP instead. Nothing in the Strategic Plan is fait accompli. Starting more fires now (even with generous Danish help) is a bad idea. Rather than spend time "discussing" this at the convention, I'd recommend using the time to come up with real action plans for parts of the SP, and then setting them in motion. WOC2018 is a pie-in-the-sky distraction for us right now.

We got as close as we are likely to get (to where big media types hang out, e.g., Madison Avenue) with WOC 93 and what happened?

What happened was that one or two orders of magnitude more labor was spent on the maps, the courses, and immediate logistics than on soliciting sponsorship and contacting the media. Granted you can spend most of your time on the latter tasks and still be unsuccessful; and a sure recipe for that is to have the event in the middle of nowhere.

I'm with eddie on this. I would consider changing my mind if West Point took on the job. Not USMAOC, but USMA plus USMAOC plus outside volunteers. Or 20 Danes were volunteered to come here and put on training for the two years leading up...

What about Dartmouth College in Hanover, NH? It's a couple hours from Boston but they have an area with some terrific terrain though it needs a lidar base.

Since Steve didn't post the price (thanks for the link, though), here is some Seabreeze price info. It looks like the basic "ride & slide" gate is $25.99. There is a $3 discount for buying tickets in advance online. The website also mentioned "special offers" but I didn't take time to browse.

Sorry, we've been mostly out of internet range, so couldn't reply sooner, but there is a deal after 5pm ($19.99), and you can print out a coupon (so, I guess we'll print out a bunch) for a $5 discount off that (so $14.99 to get in and ride for the evening). I think parents can get in cheaper if they are not riding.

The juniors are not required to head over to SeaBreeze. It is a decent, small park - don't think Six Flags or Great Adventure or anything like that - but it has some water slides, etc in addition to some typical amusement park rides. My kids as teenagers have had some birthday parties where they took friends there.

The host hotel - Comfort Inn - has extended their promo rates for CNYO's Classic Champs weekend til next Tues July 12th. Hope this helps any late comers.

Yes, this is helpful.
But why do I need to make a phone call to get the promo rate? We introverts don't like making phone calls ...

Do it, Peggy. You know you can...

Have Max make the call.

Max has excellent telephone skills. Probably not quite ready to make hotel reservations yet, though.
I did make the call myself. Glad the promo rates were extended!