Discussion: 2011 U.S. Two-Day Classic Orienteering Championships Start Times

Event Details

Start Times

The U.S. Individual Orienteering Championships are on 21 through 23 October in Boston, MA.

And these are the "individual CLASSIC champs", as stated.

No less important to many US orienteers.

Orienteering USA Rules do not specify an event called Individual Classic Championships. (Section 3.2.4) If I were Orienteering USA, I would suggest proper usage of its sanctioned Championship names to avoid further confusion.

The title "2001 Individual Classic Championships" is the phrase entered into Attackpoint by the person who posted the event. I don't believe that Orienteering USA has control over the phrasing of that entry. The hosts of the event have used the description "2011 US Classic Championships" in their literature and postings, which omits the modifier "Two Day" specified by the OUSA rules (United States Two Day Classic Orienteering Championships), but does not raise the possible confusion caused by including the word "Individual".

Yes, my objection was to the event AP posting. I noticed that the host club's marketing was consistent and correct.

Re: US Championship eligibilty as noted in the Start Lists. A bunch of people who are most likely eligible are marked as "N" which is not eligible. Everyone attending the Champs part of the event should have gotten an email yesterday asking that you verify that you are listed with the correct eligibility status. If you are not listed correctly, and you haven't contacted the registrar in the last day or two to request that it be fixed, then you should do so.

My SI should be 504014.

A bunch of people who are most likely eligible are marked as "N" which is not eligible.

Based on my experience as a registrar...
This is why US Champs eligibility should be a forced yes/no choice, rather than an opt-in check-box. Opt-out, though, would be even worse.

Ken Sr is OCIN??

They got him in a trade for a draft pick?

Am I missing something or is it acceptable that the start times are basically the same for both days?

Linda, they look pretty random to me. I plotted day1 (white cross) and day2 (red cross) start time vs "bib number" and vs. day1 start order.

What I found curious was how starts for small-field courses (W Y O) were bunched together (2-4 min intervals) in the early part of the start windows, rather than being spread throughout them.

That's common practice, Guy. It's also appallingly bad practice. White and Yellow need to be spaced out more than any other course, for several reasons. (So I'm in agreement with you, but I'm not surprised.)

Hi Guy,

The difficulty we had is that it is expected to have recreational courses on the W,Y,O, in addition to the competitive courses. Because of the very limited possibilities for suitable difficulty level courses, we needed to use essentially the same courses for both competition and recreation for W,Y. Thus the decision to start W,Y,O early so that the competitive runners would be completed before the recreational runners go out and start complicating things. We are aware that bunching can often be a problem on white and yellow (less of a problem on orange), but didn't see any good alternative here.

Pesky recreational runners complicating things!

FYI, there are some 1 min spacings on some of the comp courses- green Y for example.

It seems unlikely that the number of White or Yellow Runners plus the expected number of rec runners on the same course would approach the number of runners on the more heavily attended courses, so there would still probably have been room to space out the competitive White and Yellow runner by 8 minutes or so. But it is what it is. Future meet directors take note.

Eddie no problem, thanks for checking.
From the website:
Green X: F-20, F35+, F40+, F45+, F50+, F-Green
Green Y: M-18, M50+, M55+, M60+, M-Green
Specific example BP at 11.26 day 1 and Jeff Saeger (M60) at 11.27 :-)

Oh, sorry Bill. I had checked the age classes separately on Green-Y, but not together. There are indeed minimum 3 min intervals between starters within each age class on Green Y, but across all age classes on Green Y there are some 1 and 2 min intervals. I think that's allowed, isn't it? Dunno.

I was surprised that the entire start window for both days is only 1:15 long even with 238 starters. Could this be the reason?

I was also surprised by the short start windows for both days. It makes split-starts for us with kids very difficult (or even impossible). Is there a particular reason for this?

Only because I have heard the CNYO organizers talk in the past. They call it a "Compressed Start", and use it in nearly every event they organize. Here is a quote from2008:

"CNYO is known for its very efficient (compressed) start windows within all acceptable guidelines and rules. At an average A event it is common for a start window as short as 1.5 hours. We will be using a similar structure at this event so consider this fact if thinking that requesting specific start times will be advantageous." http://cnyo.us.orienteering.org/2008/html/2008Amee...

They get their competitors out into the woods in a short amount of time. (And like it or not, nobody really derives much pleasure from waiting to start;-)

There are indeed minimum 3 min intervals between starters within each age class on Green Y, but across all age classes on Green Y there are some 1 and 2 min intervals. I think that's allowed, isn't it?

Nope.

13.4 For individual starts the runners in each class start one by one at intervals of no less than 2 minutes. In the event multiple classes are running the same course the intervals apply to every individual regardless of class. Ideally all starting intervals on a course are equal.

Pia is right about the short window, as well. Although not a rules violation, with a 1:15 start window, you have a situation where it's vaguely possible that all competitors will be in the woods (or at least, away from the parking area if there is a remote start or finish) at the same time. This leaves nobody to watch small children.

Ok, sounds like we need a new start list. I sent a note to Pete and Barb.

Certainly there are people on red course starting with 1 minute interval.
Red: F21+, M-20, M35+, M40+, M45+, M-Red
New start list is in order to comply with 13.4 rule.

I am surrounded with girls which is, probably, fine but nowdays many of them run faster than I do :) Plus all these young M40 boys!

Checking with our registrar on this situation.
If you find/have specific questions about an entry, please do not post it or the correction on AP but send it directly to me and/or Barb Dominie. Neither of us check AP that often. Thanks.

Last call for banquet tickets. Come join 100 of your closest friends for the CCOF classic champs weekend banquet. Final numbers go the caterer Wed am so make sure Barb D or I know your intentions.. We also have a local campground offer a buy one night get one night free deal - see the CNYO web page for details.

Back to Linda’s point about start times across days, which I interpreted more as “do people who start early/late on day 1 tend to start early/late on day 2?” The question seems most simply addressed by examining the correlation between day 1 start times and day 2 start times, eh? I estimated this correlation at .57, which likely implies some systematicity between the two variables. I think eddie’s analyses obfuscated this relationship.

Methods?

Copy the last two columns of the start time file into a data analysis package, 'linearize' the times (i.e., don't compute a circular correlation as time-based data sometimes require), and compute Pearson's product-moment correlation between the two variables. The 'linearization' step can be effected by transforming the start times into "time from midnight" or "time from first start" as eddie did. Microsoft Excel will do this by formatting the columns as times, copying, and pasting values.

The relationship between the two variables is evident from their scatterplot, too. Posted here:
http://www.users.muohio.edu/wallerda/StartTimes.jp...

Nice. Day1 vs day2 time is definitely a better way to look at it graphically. Looking back at my own plot I count 45 runners with same day1/day2 start, which is way too many to be random. There are quite a few others on parallel tracks.

Given that there seems to be some (statistically significant) correlation between day 1 times and day 2 times, the question I have is what is the importance of that? (Is it a problem?)

If it were a perfect correlation or close to it, it seems undesirable, but since it's not real close to a perfect correlation, what problems might there be as a result? I'm not arguing that there aren't problems; they're just not obvious to me.

I would think a much bigger concern is the high level of 1-minute intervals on the same course (I see issues with that on Brown, both Greens, and Red).

RL_Shadow is right to point out the difference between the statistical significance and the practical importance of a correlation coefficient. The importance of a correlation is a matter of personal belief, and I’m sure that we’ll all differ on that. I don’t really have a stake in this or an axe to grind, but I would think that most people would regard a correlation of .6 in this case as practically meaningful.

It’s admittedly very hard to quantify, but I doubt that the correlation between start time interval on a given course (1-minute, 2-minute, 3-minute) and the magnitude of resultant problems between competitors on that course is any more than .6. It may be that in this case, problems with close start times are just relatively easier to imagine (or remember).

How much of this correlation do you think might be caused by family members (or others traveling together) who requested similar start times?

For Pia and other parents: there is babysitting offered. I know it gets a bit pricy with two kids for two days (that's $60 total the way I do my math), but it is an option. I've always been happy with the childcare at national events.
Max is getting older now and childcare isn't as huge an issue for us as it once was, but I know it is often very difficult for clubs to arrange. And too often there are very few parents taking advantage of the arrangements. People have their own reasons for not using the childcare, and I respect that, but if parents don't use it, probably clubs are going to quit trying hard to provide it (it's no longer an A meet requirement to do so). And that will leave some parents in the lurch.

The rule is not completely clear. It would be easy to apply this rule to the blue course because only one class runs on it. However, the second sentence says that with multiple classes on the same course, "the intervals apply to every individual regardless of class." This means that, in the case of most courses (white through red), the start intervals should be two minutes. This interpretation comes from conversations with various people but, most importantly, the chair of the rules committee, Stephen Shannonhouse.

The start times that were initially posted will be modified to follow this rule and many thanks to the people who will have to make these changes. Because all start times will be equal to or later than the originally posted times, everyone should be able to get to their starts on time even if they don't see the revised start times.

The rule, as written, is included below. It should be noted, however, that the typical start interval for sprints is one minute and the rule may have to be modified for sprints. In the case of sprints, however, the problem with "packs" forming is not as large as with the longer events so the one minute interval may be appropriate.

Peter Goodwin, VP Competition



13.4 For individual starts the runners in each class start one by one at intervals of no less than 2 minutes. In the event multiple classes are running the same course the intervals apply to every individual regardless of class. Ideally all starting intervals on a course are equal.

To the naked eye, much of the correlation seems to be due to classes being staggered in the same order within a course, rather than non-random start times within a particular class.

Mark Dominie has already stated in a note on the USOFclubnet that CNYO is making an effort to keep all of our events, but in particular a championship event, in compliance with the intent of the national rules. Subsequent to this discussion on AP about the spacing of start times within a course (and why on earth did this discussion arrive this year, and not at the North American Champs or the US Individual Champs, both hosted by our club within the past several years with exactly the same start-list philosophy, one might ask, if it is imagined to have an earth-shaking effect on the results?) Mark requested that Peter Goodwin, VP of competition, could quickly give us a definitive ruling on the interpretation of the rules.

Peter has done so above, and we will be trying to comply, though we feel that the rule needs to be re-worded for clarity if this is indeed the intent of the rule 13.4. For what it is worth, it has always been our club's interpretation that the writers of the rule were trying to establish two separate points, first that the separation between start times of any two individuals in the same class should be at least two minutes, and second that the separation between start times of consecutive individuals on the same course should be equal. Otherwise it is pretty hard to understand a reason for not just stating that the minimum time between starters on a course should be two minutes, and that all start separations should be equal. Perhaps someone who still has a copy of the old paper version of the rules from long ago could tell us if that was not indeed written out as two separate rules in times long gone by, and re-written in an unsuccessful attempt to add clarity at some intermediate date?

Mark had also asked for a clearer statement of a couple of the other rules on starting, about which Peter has not yet responded. These involve the somewhat contradictory preferences for a random draw and maximal separation of top-ranked competitors within a class as specified in the rules, and requests for specific start times to accommodate special needs of, for example, families wishing split run times so they can run without leaving children unattended, or families traveling together and requesting similar start times. I know that often I have requested an early start at races because of being very slow, and not wishing to cause inconvenience to finish crews at the end of the event. Our original start list had attempted to accommodate any such requests to the extent that we felt they were not unfairly affecting competition. We had also tried to put our oldest age groups on brown at the very beginning of the day on both days, because of some concerns about potential summer heat (and an unpleasant 2-week forecast). We would like to have a firm answer on these questions also before going through the work of another start list draw which might again have to be repeated.

Peter Goodwin in his earlier post mentions another area, that of sprints, for which the two-minute interval seems to be thoroughly inappropriate. In case a rule committee should be considering the intent and rationale for long spacing between runners in the near future, it would be good that they consider some of the reasons which Mark has mentioned in his clubnet post for keeping the start window as short as possible. Changing weather conditions during the course of the event is one that could havet relevance in two weeks if the very slowly moving heatwave drifting across the country should get as far as NY and stall out over the area. The difference between an early start and a late one might conceivably be a matter of 30F degrees in temperature experienced on the course if the starts are stretched over three and a half hours instead of an hour and three quarters. At other events it can be rain, or cold weather, or wind that shifts during the event.

In any case, I trust that remaining issues can be clarified in plenty of time so that we can have start lists published well more than the specified minimum of fifteen hours before the event!

The rules state that Sprint starts can be 1 minute.

Regarding the weather argument as the primary driver for a "compressed" start window, I realize that weather usually changes slowly, but we are talking about a difference in the start window length from 1:15 to maybe 2:30 to accommodate the 2min interval per course. If weather (particularly heat and humidity) is the primary driver, why is the Sat start at 11 AM and Sun start at 9 AM rather than having both start at say 8 AM? I think a 30F swing is much less likely at that hour of the day and the temp is lower to begin with.

I know the reason, but I want to know why this trumps weather while giving everyone something as simple as a 2+min start interval does not.

By the way, you could keep the start window short and have longer start intervals by adding additional red and green courses (Z). That would solve the perceived weather fairness issue. But of course, that would be more work...

Sorry, but we can't control the weather and you can't fashion a rule to factor in weather changes. Were it so, would we start to see competitors protesting because it got hot, or because there was a heavy shower of rain?
The start interval rule should be there to ensure, as far as possible, in an "individual" race, that people on the same course don't end up running it together. In practice that means at least for the first few controls.

Well, Mark seems to have managed to get a reasonably compressed start window even with the 2 minute start separation. Eddie has a pretty good point that we could have put in more courses. We had actually thought initially about a 2nd red course and a 2nd brown course until we saw that the pre-registration numbers were sufficiently low not to actually need them to give us a short start window, given what we had understood from our reading of the rules. And in the planning stages, I think Erin at one point had as many as 5 different green courses which eventually got consolidated down to 2. Our reason for going with the minimum number of courses for each nominal length was that we know that people enjoy comparing their times with other friends who happen to be in other classes. But with the maps already in the hands of the printers, the punch stands already out in the woods, and the full vetting done only for the control points intended for use, we can hardly make a change to more courses at this point! In hindsight, had we known that this issue were going to arise, we would very likely have simply added one additional course to red, green, and brown. If we can meet some of the growth goals that OUSA has set for itself over the next few years, perhaps we can be to the point where we will normally expect to be setting controls for upwards of 20 courses for any national event, as is already the case in many countries with a higher density of orienteers.

My compliments to you guys for accommodating these issues. I'm looking forward to enjoying the courses!

Can we have an update on the insect situation in the competition area this week, please? Deerflies? Mosquitos? ...

we will be setting controls on Thursday so I can update then but I expect deerflies and some mosquitos.

Is there any practice or model area on Friday?

Wow those are extensive course/mapper's notes. Thanks for taking the time :)

Mike, if you have a map from Klondike (NA champs 2008), it's similar but the new area is supposed to have more swamps (this according to the CNYO event page) and fewer ferns. There's a map clip from Klondike there if you don't have one.

Today's update. Still plenty of DEER FLIES and MOSQUITOS in the woods. Plan
accordingly. Hats will help with the deer flies and we will have some bug repellent at
start that may help with the mosquitos. Of course if you are running fast they may not catch you! There is a Gander Mtn. store next door to the hotel if you need mosquito netting or repellent.
Weather should be dry but still mid 80's with fairly high humidity. The woods do have ferns in places but not as thick as the NAOC at Klondike.
See you at registration tomorrow - the Comfort Suites is nice and the free happy hour was good tonight.

If anybody wants to do a sticky blue hat thing but they don't have the sticky part, I've got a one pound tub of Tanglefoot that I'll be bringing, and if you can find my car (red Pontiac Vibe), you're welcome to a dollop. Supply your own hat and tape, and don't get the goo on my car (you only need a very thin layer of the stuff).

You can find his car 'cause it's the one with all the deer flies stuck to the roof.

Actually, for those wishing to try the Tanglefoot and blue duct tape effort, there will be a supply of a few rolls of blue duct tape and a couple of cans of the brush-on version of Tanglefoot available somewhere in the general vicinity of the start area.
On the whole, the degree to which mosquitoes and deer flies may be a bother will likely depend on the individual runner, where you are in the woods, and the speed you are running. Yesterday while we were out hanging controls, my own reaction was that the mosquitoes were only a little bit of a nuisance when I was stopped to get a control flag and e-punch unit out of my pack, and not really noticeable at all when I was walking (not even running) through the woods between control points, while the deer flies weren't at all a bother until after we were out of the woods and just waiting around to make sure that everyone was back and hadn't run into any problem situations. I was wearing a hat, but not trying out the blue tape + goo option. Obviously from his post earlier, Pete ran into a few more bugs in the loops of controls he was hanging.

the us champs are under way and day one was excellent from my perspective. the course and map were interesting. the shuttle to the start was painless and the flies and mosquitoes were a non issue. the ferns were also no big deal. it was fun out there. thanks cnyo.

I was noted by at least one deerfly expert that some competitors seemed to be unfamiliar with blue tape ettiquette, specifically that it is a sign of good taste to remove the tape from the hat, fold it fly-side-in, and dispose of it in an appropriate receptacle in a timely manner.