Discussion: 2012 USA JWOC Team Selection
in: Orienteering; General
Aug 23, 2011 7:45 PM
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GuyO:
As in past years, selection of the team to represent the USA at the 2012 Junior World Orienteering Championships (JWOC) will be based upon F-20 (Green) and M-20 (Red) rankings for a 12-month Selection Period. The 2012 Selection Period will include all Orienteering USA-sanctioned A-event races between April 3, 2011 and April 2, 2012.
As such, the final event races of the 2012 JWOC Selection Period will be those of OCIN's Flying Pig XVI / Eastern States Interscholastic Championships. It will take place March 30 - April 1, 2012, in Northern Kentucky.
The first event races of the 2012 JWOC Selection Period will be those of BAOC's O' in the Oaks / 2011 US Interscholastic and Intercollegiate Championships. These races were also the final races of the 2011 JWOC Selection Period.
Comments:
* It was decided to shift the Selection Period two-weeks earlier in order to provide additional time to select the Team, file the preliminary JWOC registration, and plan and carry out training programs; also because airfares typically increase as Summer approaches.
* GAOC's 2012 US Individual (S/M/L) Championships, and COC's 2012 US Interscholastic Championships -- one week apart -- are expected to be the first events of the 2013 Selection Period.
* It is generally undesirable for a single event to be used for the selection of two JWOC Teams. However, with the 2012 Interscholastic Champs not being included in 2012 team selection, there was a need to include an event that had or would have significant attendance by western juniors. For this reason, it was decided that including the 2011 Interscholastic Champs -- again -- was necessary.
* As of this writing, 15 M-20 and 12 F-20 races are now in the books. By the end of the 2012 Selection Period, it is anticipated that as many as 14 additional races will have taken place.
* Because the final selection event will have four races, it is possible for someone, with no prior rankable races in the 2012 JWOC Selection Period, to meet the minimum qualifications for team selection (75 or more ranking points, based on at least 4 races) over the course of one 3-day weekend.
Good luck to all aspiring 2012 JWOC Team members!
Guy Olsen
Chair, Junior Team Executive Steering Committee
As such, the final event races of the 2012 JWOC Selection Period will be those of OCIN's Flying Pig XVI / Eastern States Interscholastic Championships. It will take place March 30 - April 1, 2012, in Northern Kentucky.
The first event races of the 2012 JWOC Selection Period will be those of BAOC's O' in the Oaks / 2011 US Interscholastic and Intercollegiate Championships. These races were also the final races of the 2011 JWOC Selection Period.
Comments:
* It was decided to shift the Selection Period two-weeks earlier in order to provide additional time to select the Team, file the preliminary JWOC registration, and plan and carry out training programs; also because airfares typically increase as Summer approaches.
* GAOC's 2012 US Individual (S/M/L) Championships, and COC's 2012 US Interscholastic Championships -- one week apart -- are expected to be the first events of the 2013 Selection Period.
* It is generally undesirable for a single event to be used for the selection of two JWOC Teams. However, with the 2012 Interscholastic Champs not being included in 2012 team selection, there was a need to include an event that had or would have significant attendance by western juniors. For this reason, it was decided that including the 2011 Interscholastic Champs -- again -- was necessary.
* As of this writing, 15 M-20 and 12 F-20 races are now in the books. By the end of the 2012 Selection Period, it is anticipated that as many as 14 additional races will have taken place.
* Because the final selection event will have four races, it is possible for someone, with no prior rankable races in the 2012 JWOC Selection Period, to meet the minimum qualifications for team selection (75 or more ranking points, based on at least 4 races) over the course of one 3-day weekend.
Good luck to all aspiring 2012 JWOC Team members!
Guy Olsen
Chair, Junior Team Executive Steering Committee
Aug 23, 2011 10:46 PM
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Eastern States Interscholastic Championships
How are regions determined? In 2012, there's an eastern IS champs (Kentucky), and in 2011 there was a southeastern IS champs (Georgia) and a western IS champs (California).
I know that the Georgia Navigator Cup is the US Champs in 2012, instead of being the usual southeast IS champs. But could, say, a Florida club decide to host the 2012 southeast champs next year? Or maybe they can't because the event in Kentucky outranks them in region hierarchy?
Theoretically, could the Washington Interscholastic Orienteering Championships (an existing annual event) become a sanctioned interscholastic event? What if I wanted to host an interscholastic championship in my front yard?
I find the list of championships in the US to be exhausting, in part because of how arbitrary some of these regions seem to be.
How are regions determined? In 2012, there's an eastern IS champs (Kentucky), and in 2011 there was a southeastern IS champs (Georgia) and a western IS champs (California).
I know that the Georgia Navigator Cup is the US Champs in 2012, instead of being the usual southeast IS champs. But could, say, a Florida club decide to host the 2012 southeast champs next year? Or maybe they can't because the event in Kentucky outranks them in region hierarchy?
Theoretically, could the Washington Interscholastic Orienteering Championships (an existing annual event) become a sanctioned interscholastic event? What if I wanted to host an interscholastic championship in my front yard?
I find the list of championships in the US to be exhausting, in part because of how arbitrary some of these regions seem to be.
Aug 23, 2011 11:24 PM
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I'm with you on the arbitrary regions. I also think it is a bit crazy to count the IS twice. the one from this year was BEFORE this JWOC. If they didn't make it with scores from that weekend but were close and then get maybe another a-meet somewhere else this fall and qualify? I think that is a bit ridiculous! That means that someone could in theory qualify for JWOC this fall and not orienteer until JWOC next summer. I'm hoping that there are enough juniors out there that want the spots that that isn't going to be the case but it could happen and I think it is crazy for us to be spending the money to send juniors that don't orienteer consistently. There were many "second tire" (not sure that is the right word but gets the point) countries doing extremly well at JWOC this year. Look at New Zealand, Ang was 6th in the sprint and a spanish guy I believe won a medal. I would love to see the USA up there. That being said I do not think this criteria to make the team is helping us get there.
Aug 24, 2011 12:00 AM
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I'm meaning "second tier" but basically nations that we don't normally see on the podium
Aug 24, 2011 1:17 AM
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To Alison's point, it looks like you could rack up points over the summer and call it quits.
As far as I can tell the only meet that will count for JWOC in 2012 is the Flying Pig.
The selections will be heavily biased on the prior years' performance. That does not sound like a good idea when you are dealing with juniors - who, theoretically, should be improving at a rapid rate.
As far as I can tell the only meet that will count for JWOC in 2012 is the Flying Pig.
The selections will be heavily biased on the prior years' performance. That does not sound like a good idea when you are dealing with juniors - who, theoretically, should be improving at a rapid rate.
Aug 24, 2011 2:15 AM
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GuyO:
Most of the reasons for setting the 2012 JWOC selection as described are in my initial post, but let me emphasize a few points...
1) The JWOC consideration criteria remains unchanged: minimum 75 ranking points over at least 4 days of competition.
2) ALL past JWOC selections have been based on events during the prior calendar year -- and ALWAYS included races that took place prior to that year's JWOC.
3) Due to the iterative process used to calculate rankings, one's points from prior races can, in fact, change even if no additional races are run.
4) M-20 & F-20 are run on courses with many other categories, so strong runs must be so in comparison to the best runners of much larger fields.
As for the Eastern States IS, it is my understanding that "Eastern States" will be identified using a critierion similar to that used to identify "Western States": States in which no elevation reaches 10,000 ft (3,000 m).
1) The JWOC consideration criteria remains unchanged: minimum 75 ranking points over at least 4 days of competition.
2) ALL past JWOC selections have been based on events during the prior calendar year -- and ALWAYS included races that took place prior to that year's JWOC.
3) Due to the iterative process used to calculate rankings, one's points from prior races can, in fact, change even if no additional races are run.
4) M-20 & F-20 are run on courses with many other categories, so strong runs must be so in comparison to the best runners of much larger fields.
As for the Eastern States IS, it is my understanding that "Eastern States" will be identified using a critierion similar to that used to identify "Western States": States in which no elevation reaches 10,000 ft (3,000 m).
Aug 24, 2011 2:23 AM
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it looks like you could rack up points over the summer and call it quits.
This has always been true and will always be true with a 12-month selection period. BUT keep in mind that if we have a competitive (or nearly competitive) JWOC team, it will be composed entirely of college students, who have a difficult time making it to spring and fall events (especially if they are competing for their college track and XC teams).
I heartily agree with Alison, that there is absolutely NO reason that a single event should count for 2 JWOC selections. Especially an Interscholastic event where the competitors don't even run the correct courses! Instead, they receive inflated ratings on lower courses.
Finally, I have to point out that this announcement is coming out over 5 MONTHS late. The rules state that the selection criteria are to be announced one month before any events that will be included in the selection period. I do realize that the Junior ESC is overworked and under-appreciated, so I feel bad about pointing this out, but I think it's important to get this right for the kids vying for spots on the team.
This has always been true and will always be true with a 12-month selection period. BUT keep in mind that if we have a competitive (or nearly competitive) JWOC team, it will be composed entirely of college students, who have a difficult time making it to spring and fall events (especially if they are competing for their college track and XC teams).
I heartily agree with Alison, that there is absolutely NO reason that a single event should count for 2 JWOC selections. Especially an Interscholastic event where the competitors don't even run the correct courses! Instead, they receive inflated ratings on lower courses.
Finally, I have to point out that this announcement is coming out over 5 MONTHS late. The rules state that the selection criteria are to be announced one month before any events that will be included in the selection period. I do realize that the Junior ESC is overworked and under-appreciated, so I feel bad about pointing this out, but I think it's important to get this right for the kids vying for spots on the team.
Aug 24, 2011 2:57 AM
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GuyO:
Especially an Interscholastic event where the competitors don't even run the correct courses! Instead, they receive inflated ratings on lower courses.
Are the JWOC ranking points based on HSVM/F really inflated? I would be very interested in reviewing any statistical evidence that this is indeed the case. It is also possible that our rankings wizard, vmeyer, accounts for this possibility in her calculations.
...this announcement is coming out over 5 MONTHS late
True, and I accept responsibility for that.
However, the petition process is available to those who believe their final JWOC ranking was adversely affected by something beyond their control -- such as the late announcement of the Selection Period.
Are the JWOC ranking points based on HSVM/F really inflated? I would be very interested in reviewing any statistical evidence that this is indeed the case. It is also possible that our rankings wizard, vmeyer, accounts for this possibility in her calculations.
...this announcement is coming out over 5 MONTHS late
True, and I accept responsibility for that.
However, the petition process is available to those who believe their final JWOC ranking was adversely affected by something beyond their control -- such as the late announcement of the Selection Period.
Aug 24, 2011 3:21 AM
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GuyO:
The rules state that the selection criteria are to be announced one month before any events that will be included in the selection period.
This is no longer the case. In the revised Rules of Competition -- which also created the Junior Team ESC -- this provision was removed, along with others that "hard-coded" selection criteria. The thinking was that, as a policy-setting body, JTESC needs flexibility in order to perform that function.
Unfortuntately, the rules as posted on the OUSA site (D.2), are the old, unrevised ones. This is no doubt due to an overworked (and underappreciated) OUSA Rules Committee.
All that having been said, going forward, JTESC will strive to announce JWOC Selection Periods as early as possible.
This is no longer the case. In the revised Rules of Competition -- which also created the Junior Team ESC -- this provision was removed, along with others that "hard-coded" selection criteria. The thinking was that, as a policy-setting body, JTESC needs flexibility in order to perform that function.
Unfortuntately, the rules as posted on the OUSA site (D.2), are the old, unrevised ones. This is no doubt due to an overworked (and underappreciated) OUSA Rules Committee.
All that having been said, going forward, JTESC will strive to announce JWOC Selection Periods as early as possible.
Aug 24, 2011 3:35 AM
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Are the JWOC ranking points based on HSVM/F really inflated? I would be very interested in reviewing any statistical evidence that this is indeed the case
The awesome rankings web site makes this easy. For runners currently ranked on Red and Green, their Green ranking is "only" 8 points higher on average. For runners officially ranked on Green and Brown (there are only 3), their Brown ranking is 26.5 points higher on average. If we loosen things and look at the scores of all runners officially ranked on Green that have Brown scores, we still see a 17 point advantage (sample is now 18).
EDIT: obviously this is wrong - these are the scores before they are reclassified as Red/Green for JWOC ranking purposes, which corrects for most(?) of this difference.
The awesome rankings web site makes this easy. For runners currently ranked on Red and Green, their Green ranking is "only" 8 points higher on average. For runners officially ranked on Green and Brown (there are only 3), their Brown ranking is 26.5 points higher on average. If we loosen things and look at the scores of all runners officially ranked on Green that have Brown scores, we still see a 17 point advantage (sample is now 18).
EDIT: obviously this is wrong - these are the scores before they are reclassified as Red/Green for JWOC ranking purposes, which corrects for most(?) of this difference.
Aug 24, 2011 9:30 AM
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especially if they are competing for their college track and XC teams
Are any?
If they are, why do they get dropped so easily?
Are any?
If they are, why do they get dropped so easily?
Aug 24, 2011 12:35 PM
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One more comment. It is a shame for the girls (and the US only had 2 to meet the qualification criteria in 2011), that they will have to dig out of a hole from the double-counted meet. For the last JWOC selection rankings, the top 3 girls only managed an average of 70, 64 and 58 points in the IS races, so including the races (again) for the 2012 JWOC selection will mean there are running the rest of the year against a strong headwind (and it's even stronger for those not in the top 3), in trying to get to the magic "75".
@c.hill: touche
@c.hill: touche
This discussion thread is closed.