Discussion: CMYK values and printing
in: Orienteering; General
Jan 25, 2012 4:10 AM
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Hello,
I was looking on the internet for cmyk values that correspond roughly to the spot values for o maps (I understand this depends somewhat on the printer to be used). I didn't find anything particularly helpful. A couple of links here are interesting, esp if you play with photoshop. I just want to export a pdf file to print...
In the end, I just copied over cmyk values from another map, but, if nothing else, these don't use features such as transparency to get the different shadings you get with oh so beautiful offset printing.
What is current best practice for going from ocad to pdf?
I was looking on the internet for cmyk values that correspond roughly to the spot values for o maps (I understand this depends somewhat on the printer to be used). I didn't find anything particularly helpful. A couple of links here are interesting, esp if you play with photoshop. I just want to export a pdf file to print...
In the end, I just copied over cmyk values from another map, but, if nothing else, these don't use features such as transparency to get the different shadings you get with oh so beautiful offset printing.
What is current best practice for going from ocad to pdf?
Jan 25, 2012 4:18 AM
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Silly me. Why didn't wasn't the IOF the first thing that came to mind?
http://orienteering.org/resources/mapping/
Guidelines for using non-offset printed maps in World Ranking Events
There's a link to http://lazarus.elte.hu/mc/print-tech/index.html
and section 5 of that has a test .ocd file to download.
Is that the best there is?
http://orienteering.org/resources/mapping/
Guidelines for using non-offset printed maps in World Ranking Events
There's a link to http://lazarus.elte.hu/mc/print-tech/index.html
and section 5 of that has a test .ocd file to download.
Is that the best there is?
Jan 25, 2012 4:41 AM
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What is current best practice for going from ocad to pdf?
I join the question as far as OCAD 8. It appears that OCAD 8's PostScript export is seriously broken (both the native/built-in EPS export and when I invoke a PostScript printer driver from OCAD). The most blatant manifestation of the brokenness is when there's a raster bitmap to print, but even when there is no bitmap, the conversion takes forever and the output is often buggy/not readable by say Photoshop or Distiller. I'm sure this has been fixed in OCAD 9 or 10, but I don't have either. So, the production step I have so far been using has been to export to TIFF, which is about the only export that isn't broken in OCAD 8, at say 600 or 720 dpi referred to the final output, and then massage things in Photoshop, including adding sponsor logos and most text. It's ghetto, but it mostly works. The only time it doesn't quite work is with 0.07 mm ISSOM pavement/canopy boundaries. For all thicker lines, if the printer is decent, you can't tell at 720 dpi if you just printed a bitmap thus generated, or a vector.
What should I have been doing (other than buying OCAD 10, which I can't immediately afford)?
I join the question as far as OCAD 8. It appears that OCAD 8's PostScript export is seriously broken (both the native/built-in EPS export and when I invoke a PostScript printer driver from OCAD). The most blatant manifestation of the brokenness is when there's a raster bitmap to print, but even when there is no bitmap, the conversion takes forever and the output is often buggy/not readable by say Photoshop or Distiller. I'm sure this has been fixed in OCAD 9 or 10, but I don't have either. So, the production step I have so far been using has been to export to TIFF, which is about the only export that isn't broken in OCAD 8, at say 600 or 720 dpi referred to the final output, and then massage things in Photoshop, including adding sponsor logos and most text. It's ghetto, but it mostly works. The only time it doesn't quite work is with 0.07 mm ISSOM pavement/canopy boundaries. For all thicker lines, if the printer is decent, you can't tell at 720 dpi if you just printed a bitmap thus generated, or a vector.
What should I have been doing (other than buying OCAD 10, which I can't immediately afford)?
Jan 25, 2012 5:26 AM
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Honestly?
This is a screen grab with ocad on left and exported pdf viewed in preview on the right... with the iof file colour values.
This is a screen grab with ocad on left and exported pdf viewed in preview on the right... with the iof file colour values.
Jan 25, 2012 5:49 AM
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Ugg. I hope you can do better than that - that's pretty horrible.
It's been a couple years since I fooled around with map printing, but I remember that the overprint setting was important,and that killed me because I didn't draft the map with overprint in mind. In the end, I copied some color tables over from another map, and tweaked them until things looked right.
Did you find this page? It pretty much suggests following T/D's approach.
http://ilm425.umb.no/~lanht/o/kartutv/printing/pri...
You probably already found this page?
http://www.pdcarto.com/orienteering/spot2cmyktutor...
It's been a couple years since I fooled around with map printing, but I remember that the overprint setting was important,and that killed me because I didn't draft the map with overprint in mind. In the end, I copied some color tables over from another map, and tweaked them until things looked right.
Did you find this page? It pretty much suggests following T/D's approach.
http://ilm425.umb.no/~lanht/o/kartutv/printing/pri...
You probably already found this page?
http://www.pdcarto.com/orienteering/spot2cmyktutor...
Jan 25, 2012 8:33 AM
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GuyO:
I am pretty much an OCAD ignorante, having only worked with OCAD6, and was lucky enough (at the time) to have access to a laser printer for which I did not have to adjust colors. With that in mind...
1) How about printing using OCAD10 Viewer, a free download?
2) Would condes possibly be able to print better than directly from OCAD?
1) How about printing using OCAD10 Viewer, a free download?
2) Would condes possibly be able to print better than directly from OCAD?
Jan 25, 2012 9:37 AM
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1. the colors you see on the screen are not necessarily any indictaiion of the colors you see when printed.
2. The print colors can vary depending on the printer, printer settings, the paper, the software, version, etc.
You can try asking around for recommended CMYK settings for your model printer but that may not help much as the settings will be different for printing direct from OCAD as opposed to via PDF.
So use the IOF recommended values as a starting point, then adjust them by trial and error until you get a printed copy that looks about right. There is an IOF produced sample print (hardcopy) which I try to match - if you dont have that just try to match a printed map you have that looks good.
for example in your screen shots, for the greens I would try reducing the cyan and increase the yellow. You may not be able to get it exactly as you would like but unless its for a WRE near enough will be OK.
Also watch out for other problems - sometimes conversion to PDF can slightly change relative sizes of small symbols - especially dots.
2. The print colors can vary depending on the printer, printer settings, the paper, the software, version, etc.
You can try asking around for recommended CMYK settings for your model printer but that may not help much as the settings will be different for printing direct from OCAD as opposed to via PDF.
So use the IOF recommended values as a starting point, then adjust them by trial and error until you get a printed copy that looks about right. There is an IOF produced sample print (hardcopy) which I try to match - if you dont have that just try to match a printed map you have that looks good.
for example in your screen shots, for the greens I would try reducing the cyan and increase the yellow. You may not be able to get it exactly as you would like but unless its for a WRE near enough will be OK.
Also watch out for other problems - sometimes conversion to PDF can slightly change relative sizes of small symbols - especially dots.
Jan 25, 2012 9:45 AM
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Jan 25, 2012 11:58 AM
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This is on the Orienteering Australia Website
Change the CMYK values around as you like, I have made up colour charts for Green, Blue and Yellow in OCAD, similar to the Purple one that is avalable here
If you would like them, drop me a email
For example, when printing the Maps for the Oz Champs 2009, we were using PRETEX through a Konica Minolta 6501, we changed the values of Brown from 56/100/18 to 56/100/27 as we wanted it darker, for the Green we changed from 76/91 to 66/100 as we wanted the Brown to be seen through it, so made it a little lighter.
I have kept those setting as standard, and now use them as default on my XEROX 7750/7760
Change the CMYK values around as you like, I have made up colour charts for Green, Blue and Yellow in OCAD, similar to the Purple one that is avalable here
If you would like them, drop me a email
For example, when printing the Maps for the Oz Champs 2009, we were using PRETEX through a Konica Minolta 6501, we changed the values of Brown from 56/100/18 to 56/100/27 as we wanted it darker, for the Green we changed from 76/91 to 66/100 as we wanted the Brown to be seen through it, so made it a little lighter.
I have kept those setting as standard, and now use them as default on my XEROX 7750/7760
Jan 25, 2012 1:27 PM
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feet:
[Parenthetic note: in the US the IOF hardcopy sample print output is available by contacting Greg Lennon, the OUSA mapping chair. In addition, each club was sent a copy about two years ago, so you can also check with your local club.]
Jan 25, 2012 1:42 PM
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Would condes possibly be able to print better than directly from OCAD?
Condes has its own renderer, which usually doesn't crash or stall and handles bitmap templates OK, but is likely to render fine detail incorrectly. The difference between OCAD and Condes renderers leads to things like fence and cliff tags appearing in different places, so your precisely tuned output with fence tags steered away from other objects becomes not what you had expected. In another example, a 90 degree bend in ISSOM stairs gets rendered as a less than 90 degree bend. Also, you can't do complex template layering in Condes, or any template layering for that matter.
Condes has its own renderer, which usually doesn't crash or stall and handles bitmap templates OK, but is likely to render fine detail incorrectly. The difference between OCAD and Condes renderers leads to things like fence and cliff tags appearing in different places, so your precisely tuned output with fence tags steered away from other objects becomes not what you had expected. In another example, a 90 degree bend in ISSOM stairs gets rendered as a less than 90 degree bend. Also, you can't do complex template layering in Condes, or any template layering for that matter.
Jan 25, 2012 7:31 PM
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GuyO:
@T/D: Thanks! That's good to know, now that HVO is actually using its condes license. Shall I presume this applies to the latest version of condes?
This might be why Mike M imports condes data to OCAD for printing.
This might be why Mike M imports condes data to OCAD for printing.
Jan 26, 2012 4:19 AM
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Condes has this disturbing habit of autoupdating to the latest version, and I don't think there was work on the renderer for a while, but I may be wrong.
Jan 26, 2012 9:59 AM
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A quick comparison of the PrintTech2006 map in Condes and OCAD indicates that there are still discrepancies - most obvious with track junctions (but only at high levels of magnification). The version printed from Condes using overprint simulation on my home printer (HP 2710, around 6 years old) would probably not meet the IOF Map Commission's standards, but comparing it to the offset-printed version, I doubt that anyone would notice any problems when competing.
Jan 26, 2012 10:00 AM
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I don't think Condes auto-updates. From the website "I encourage you to always update to the latest version in order to take advantage of the latest features and improvements."
Jan 26, 2012 10:39 AM
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You can turn off CONDES updates, go > File > Standard settings for this PC > Application settings > untick 'Auto updates'
Jan 26, 2012 11:03 AM
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In page 15 there is good map example for illustrating why I don't like overprint/transparency effects unless if it's done really really well. In green contours and course drawings turn all too often essentially black and you can't anymore see that well difference between footpath and form line or notice black cliffs on black contour. Or difference between black road and "purple" line between controls.
This discussion thread is closed.