Discussion: Petzl NAO

So - I'm in the market for a reasonably priced head lamp for occasional night-O and XC. The Petzl NAO seems like a reasonable option to me, but I was wondering if anyone has any actual experience using one of these for night-O and if you have, then how did it work out?

Google for "Magicshine MJ-808". Sometimes advertised as bike-lamp, but also available as headlamp. I don't think you will get a better headlamp for night-O (for a reasonable price).

Thanks for the recommendation! The Magicshine lights seem quite decent and I was considering getting one until I realized that once I add the price of headband, extension cable and some sort battery strap, the total cost come close enough to that of the NAO to warrant a comparison, hence the question.

Clearly, the lamps a quite different. But - if we line them up and take them out on a real night-O - as in trees with leaves, dense forrest, fog, maybe even rain - then how do they compare to one another? Do they compare at all or am I trying to compare apples to oranges here? Does anyone know of any reviews of the NAO done by orienteers for orienteers?

With 315 lumens for orienteering NAO can be considered only as as emergency lamp in case of main lamp failure

I've got a knockoff magicshine, and it's worked great so far. I'm sure the quality and brightness are a big step down from the real deal - but it's damn bright, comes with a head strap, and doesn't cost anywhere near a NAO. It's a little bouncy, you need to mod the head bracket to tilt it up enough, and the power cord is just barely not long enough. I found (but never got around to buying) an extension cord here

I would second the idea of a Magicshine if you want the ultimate light for night-o. I have a Magicshine XM-L 1000, and it is great. It is overkill for regular trail running though, especially if you're out with a group.

If you are looking for value, I recommend a Fenix HL21. I have one of these too. It packs a hell of a punch for one AA battery (and does take rechargeables). For brightness, it's not in the league of Magicshines or the NAO, but it is a good bit brighter than a lot of the mainstream-brand headlamps, especially those in its price range (~$35).

The technology for the NAO looks remarkable, but for sheer illumination a bike lamp like a Magicshine will blow it out of the water. The really awesome feature of the NAO (thought I haven't tested it in person), is that when you look down to your map, it's supposed to dim, so you don't get blinded.

@ nerimka - yeah, I kinda figured that was the general consensus, but - to play devils advocate for a moment - a 20w halogen bulb puts out in the neighborhood of 300 lumens, doesn't it? Probably depends on the bulb and most likely, it is a bit more, but - still - plenty of night-O have been done comfortably with the output of a 20w halogen lamp. Or 10w for that matter. Or even less than that.

But anyway - I get your point and you are probably right. I was really interested in hearing whether the 300 lumens output was used more effectively in the NAO, given all the "intelligence" they claim to have build in.

@ bgallup - That looks cheap enough to take a chance on regardless ... What do you use for a battery harness, if the cord is too short?

@ eelgrassman

The really awesome feature of the NAO (thought I haven't tested it in person), is that when you look down to your map, it's supposed to dim, so you don't get blinded.

Yep - that is one of the reasons why I was asking for real world experience. Does it really work well or is it mostly hype? I could fork over $175 and find out for myself, but I'm too cheap. :-)

If you just want to orienteer - every flashlight works ok. But if you want to be competitive like you are during daytime, believe me, is huge difference between 300 lumens and 1000 lumens. And big difference between 1000 lumens and 2000 lumens.
But lumens is only one point. Optics does huge difference. Most of cheep chinese head/bike lamps has narrow beam, often with strong spot. Thats not good, better is wider and evenly distributed beam without center spot. But often you can take off reflector, or change distance to lens, or change lens and voila, lamp is usable :) Wide beem doesn't blind you so much when reading or in case of short distance to something in front of you. Good lamps uses fpr this additional led for map reading or specially shaped optics.
But good beam with high power and good electronics costs much more than 175$ if you want branded product with warranty. Google for Lupine, Scurion, Silva alpha.
Or ask friend with skills in electronics. Buy cheapest headlamp and on this base he can mount leds, optics, cooler, switch, cables, driver, battery. Charger also counts. And for 150$ you'll have 10 times more powerfull headlamp than if you'll buy ;)
Realy good for these days, branded headlamp for orienteering with price 150$ - doesn't exists :)
Borrow some lamp, test, take decission if it good enough FOR YOU. No one knows what is good enough for you.

@nerimka - yeah - you always get what you pay for, don't you?. More or less anyway. And you are right - an optimal light for "serious" might-O would probably run me a bit more than $175. Also - thanks for the write up on the various aspects that - when combined right - makes for a great night-O light. Nice overview.

"I've got a knockoff magicshine".

That's pretty funny... because MagicShines are knockoffs of Lupines. So now we are buying knockoffs of the knockoffs!

I like the MagicShine offerings. The lumens per dollar can't be beat.

I bought and reviewed two lenses that broaden the beam...
http://www.attackpoint.org/searchsessions.jsp?keyw...

You might look at the next Petzl down from the NAO. The Petzl MYO RXP is $80 to $90. Even though the light output is less than the NAO, it is far brighter than necessary in most situations. It has 10 brightness levels. You program in three that you like, so I have the minimum that is great for reading the map and walking down roads or trails on a rogaine, a medium for closing in on a control and a high power that I can see all the way across an open field with. For night O events, I run it on medium the whole way unless I need high to quickly scan a large area. I have used this model for several years with no problems. For a rogaine I use three lithium AA cells that get me about five hours of travel. When the light starts to dim, put in another set that gets you to dawn. I use the left over battery power for all sorts of jobs around the house and car. The light weight and comfortable fit are appreciated.

For a night O there would be no problem, but with the NAO, what do you do when the battery runs out during a rogaine?

Thanks for the input, references and ideas, everyone.

For me, it's a wrap. While I would like to try the NAO for night-O, I'm not willing to fork over $175 for the pleasure. I was hoping someone else had made the move and had experiences to share, but it would seem not. Or at least not in the time frame I have available to make a decision.

So it will be a Magicshine for me. I've gone ahead and ordered the broadening lens per LeMachine recommendation because it is cheap and seem well worth the investment.

Oh - almost forgot.

@ BouldBob :

with the NAO, what do you do when the battery runs out during a rogaine?

I think you can actually run it on regular batteries as well. At lease I seem to recall reading that somewhere. Or you could carry a spare rechargeable. But the battery life didn't seem totally terrible as long as you let the NAO manage the light intensity.

One other fascinating aspect of the NAO is that you should be able to pre-program lighting profiles. I don't know whether all this technology will lead anywhere or just fade away, but I'm rather fascinated by the thought of intelligent lighting for night-O rather than brute force lights like the Magicshine.

I think this one might be good. It uses xml, and seems like it has enough batteries as well

http://dx.com/p/cree-xm-l-t6-700lm-3-mode-cool-whi...

This one has narrow beem with central spot. But works sufficiently if you dispose reflector to the bin.
P.S. definitely not 700 lumen, in real world could be 400-500.

I took the plunge and got a Nao a little while ago, got it at Campsaver with a 20% off coupon and free shipping (had it shipped to a post box I use in the States). For trail running so far it is awesome! As the video's online show, it does dim pretty quick when looking down at a map for example and does get quite a bit brighter when looking up.

Honestly, it pretty seamless in the change in intensity and I don't think I have had it on full beam yet in any trail running situation.

We came across some runners one night as we finished while stretching and they were intrigued so we looked across this field (probably 30-40m across) and easily lit up the trees on the far side on full burn. A nice wide beam with no hot spots on full burn but when looking down I find it shines a single track trail perfectly with about 3' to either side.

I have not gone through a full battery as yet, but am not out consistently long enough to find out its burn time, but so far after three 1hr trail runs (or so) it is still in the full charge range according to the indicator.

It uses the 18650 battery, but you can put in 2 x AAA (pretty sure) in if need be. But as I have a bunch of 18650's kicking around I may solder tabs and attach the connector and make my own spare battery as Petzl charges $45 for a spare. (18650's can be had from dx.com for $7 a pair and they are protected cells).

I'm not running at night again till Monday, if I remember I'll take some pic's and post them.

I'm tempted to say it is heavy, but I am used to a small DX.com special AAA headlamp which is super small, light and bright so I won't say it is heavy, just bigger. But being bigger it is also balanced nicely from front to back.

It comes with a flat strap you can use as a 3rd support going over the top head to help hold it in place and after running with just the normal headband I tried that strap and actually like it. I could loosen the headband a bit and it didn't bounce around.

But the only real complaint so far is that again, it is a larger unit so stuffing it into any pocket takes space. It pretty much fills a shoulder strap water bottle pocket on the Salomon S-Labs Race packs for example, I can squeeze a gel or two in there with it but not much else.

Again, I'll try to get some pic's on Monday while out in the trails.

D

Magicshine period

The ease of recharging seems to be another attraction of the Petzl. Especially for training, I'm intrigued.

Was out for my run this evening in Sandy and totally forgot to bring my camera, so pictures. But, the battery died towards the end of the run.

Before it died I did get warning, the light flashed 3 times and then a couple minutes later it did it again. It then got dimmer for about a minute and died.

It resurrected itself and ran on real low output but I unplugged the battery when I got back to the car, but as I was leant a flashlight I didn't bother to see if it was enough light to walk out with.

All told I got 6-7 runs each ranging from 60-75 min out of it, with each run being separated by a few days.

But that is all variable depending on how you program it.

D

an optimal light for "serious" night-O would probably run me a bit more than $175
Beg to disagree.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipp...
The power of 3 Magicshines: $63 + $7 shipping. battery lasts about 2 hours on full power - all 3 leds on. This have massive wide output. If not enough change the lenses and/or reflector of the side lights to get smoot, no-central-spot, wide beams (about $20 shipped) and a nice fabric/plastic headstrap ($15) and you have a perfect top level competition O light (thrower + wide beam) for around $100

And no electrical engineering experience needed.All this DIY soldering and stuff was golden 3 -5 years ago in the pre magicshine era, when there were no commercial powerful LED lights for under $500 - $800. This time have passed. Chinese manufacture good quality end customer head harnesses and light cases, and they use the same LED manufacturers: Seoul Semi and CREE that Lupine/Silva use (+- 10% variance in performance of the LEDs based on what quality bin the LEDs come from)

One Advantage that the European light companies have is that they use much better and long lasting Li-ion batteries (2 - 3 times longer run times) and chargers than the knockoff lights. But this is not issue for Orienteering since about 2 hours is usually all you need for those competitive events.