Discussion: Should OUSA help clubs with web design?

Please discuss - I have my own half-formed thoughts about this but I'd like to hear what other people think without any prompting beyond the bare question.

Whether it is OUSA, or an individual or team (perhaps charging a minimal fee for services), I think many clubs would welcome the help. Many club webmasters would much rather be running through the woods or mapping or setting controls than sitting at a computer troubleshooting code or trying to figure out how to make a web page more attractive.

As Mike says, most clubs will welcome any help. But, I don't think that helping with web design is something OUSA should be focused on right now.

My sense is that OUSA, as an organization made up of many individuals, is more than capable of "focusing" on multiple issues. Humans might not be well suited for multi-tasking, but organizations sure are.

For some time I've been of the opinion that OUSA should offer web-hosting for its member clubs -- possibly on a dedicated server. It might even help a certain major club to finally get its website fully back online...

Web design and hosting are freely available on an open market. They aren't venues requiring technical expertise. No, seriously, what's next? Should Orienteering USA design A event shirts? Should it organize banquets? Do clubs' accounting? I would imagine there's someone in OUSA who is better qualified than anyone in a given club to do all of these tasks, and may even be volunteer-motivated to do these tasks for free. But for every such OUSA volunteer, there is an infinitely better qualified professional who'll do a better job. And nothing is free. If experience is an indicator, the volunteer won't be around for long; her skills are transferable and the market pays money.

If a club wants a great website, it should start with charging $11 instead of $10, and using the extra $2000 to hire a professional. Stop being cheap.

Or find a club website that they like, and ask the club nicely if the design can be copied, for a fee. There's not much point being original.

No, I do not think OUSA should not spend their resources on web design.

I get the feeling I should have made the question "Should OUSA do something about the highly variable quality of club web sites?" even though it's pretty verbose - I'm agnostic as to where the actual web design expertise ought to be found. The crucial thing I think it would make sense for OUSA to do is identify the web sites most in need of improvement and, for lack of a more suitable phrase, stage interventions with the appropriate clubs. At which point I'm sure some would say "We don't have the expertise to do better ourselves nor the money to pay someone to do it for us." and the question of whether OUSA resources, volunteer or monetary, ought to be devoted to helping them would, admittedly, arise.

To flat naysayers (acjospe presumably included despite the double negative), how are we supposed to successfully attract lots of new people to orienteering if our public face in some parts of the country is made up of unattractive, amateurish web sites? Why labour under that kind of handicap when web design services are available on the market even if they can't be found in house?

I thought it was interesting that Dontgetlost's Ark presentation spent so much time talking about their marketing versus the exercises the kids do. If a website is marketing, and if marketing is important, and if it would be really redundant and if not all clubs can generate $2k by bumping fees by a buck (I wish!), then maybe a little central coordination would be a good thing.

I don't think it's a case of being cheap as much as why all XX clubs should invent the same wheel with their own open market professionals.

I guess I'm supposed to write more than just "no". I don't feel that OUSA has the in-house expertise to be offering this service, no offense meant to anyone who works on the website. I agree with jtorranc that our public face of the disparate clubs is pretty bad, but maybe the approach should be to offer website-improving-grant carrots, with the stick of telling the worst offending clubs that they've been selected as the worst five (or whatever) club websites in the US, and (choose your punishment) will happen if you don't take this money and hire yourself a better web designer within whatever time frame. Or some way to encourage clubs to actually pay for a service that will deliver what is promised. I guess some sort of BMP or minimum standards should maybe be in place, but that's not an easy one to write or to enforce.

Who decides what is unattractive and amateurish? It sounds to me like you just think your site is the best and therefore everyone else's should look just like yours.

Seriously, this federation has MUCH more important concerns to deal with than the look of all the local club's websites. If clubs want some help they can go find it. If they like what they have, leave them alone.

@ jtorranc
So, that's what you're getting at.

I suppose the situation is different for each club. Just my opinion but for our club, guilty of amateurish web site, the web site is not limiting our growth. At this point, the limiting factor (again, my opinion), is the very infrequent number of events and what is limiting that is our maps. and what is limiting that is expertise, time and money.

But carlch, if you had more members you could host more events and then make more maps and in the long run you'd create expertise, time and money.

Which clubs out there have nice, functional websites and would be willing to let other clubs use all code etc., just changing the pics and data?

Which clubs have web fixtures/results integrated with their event software so they have one-click results upload?

Thomas Nipen and Russel Porter have designed a very elegant web structure/template for Canadian orienteering clubs. works very well especially for clubs that are events-centric.

http://gvoc.whyjustrun.ca/
http://stars.whyjustrun.ca/

My club has a lot of programs so the template wasn't ideal for us but it is great to see many of Canada's clubs using their template.

It sounds to me like you just think your site is the best and therefore everyone else's should look just like yours.

I literally haven't written a thing about my club's web site or any other specific club's web site, nor have I written anything less vague than "unattractive and amateurish" about what characteristics I think distinguish the better club web sites from the worse ones, so I think that was uncalled for.

That said, the reason I started this thread is that I think the transition in summer 2010 from our previous definitely amateurish web site to our current (courtesy mostly of help from Dan Felitsky and a lot of ongoing work from Greg Lennon) better web site is a big part of why QOC has been growing strongly during my tenure as president . It certainly isn't my visionary leadership, except inasmuch as I argued in favour of the revamp prior to summer 2010 and my efforts have freed some of the Lennons' time to focus more strongly on publicity generally, not just the web site. And there have certainly been a few other contributing factors (e.g. slightly more events, growth in JROTC participation) independent of better marketing.

Anyway, QOC's recent experience may not be relevant to the situation of every club out there but I can't help thinking that any club that thinks they're limited only by other factors and not at all by the quality of their online presence without having made a serious effort to improve that online presence is very likely ignoring one of the highest return investments they could make in their club operations. And if they won't come to that realisation on their own, maybe the national orienteering community ought to prod them and offer them a hand if necessary.

But carlch, if you had more members you could host more events and then make more maps and in the long run you'd create expertise, time and money.

I'd sequence that if you had more starts, you'd have more revenue with which you could make/update more maps and in the long run expand your membership, schedule, map inventory, etc. but yes, that's the basic idea

I agree with jtorranc's above two posts.

Well, isn't this back to the chicken or the egg question. It's just my opinion but I think the maps come first and then the events follow and than the people follow. Unfortunately, no matter how many people join the club, I don't see us picking up mapping expertise.

In any event, improving the website would be way down on my list of priorities. I mean, just getting a 501.c.3 would big a far bigger priority.

Ok, I'll give you that - I should have said "your favorite website" rather than just "your website." However you continued on to say essentially "that said, I was indeed referring to my own (QOC's) website" :) I therefore stand by my statement.

You've made the very bold claim that QOCs website redesign has been a big part of the recent growth of QOC. I assume you mean membership growth, but you didn't specify. You also said that Greg's time has been freed to work on publicity in general. How do you know that it wasn't Greg's additional publicity effort that has led to QOCs growth rather than the website redesign? Without knowing exactly what he was doing, it sure seems like directed publicity efforts would reap greater benefits than (essentially) cosmetics on your website. But you've provided no numbers to substantiate either one.

Since the title of this thread has OUSA in it, my thought was immediately with the OUSA website. Note that it too was redesigned at the start of the Strategic Plan effort 3-4 years ago. I will argue that there has been almost no growth in OUSA's membership numbers and A-meet starts in that time. How do you explain that OUSA's website redesign had little or no effect on membership growth, but QOC's did? Is QOC's that much better?

That is, given your single, anecdotal point of evidence, I'm disputing your claim that website overhauls lead to club growth. (Yes, I know you didn't actually say "website overhauls lead to growth," but I believe that is what you implied in so many words above).

Well, we could say, indisputably, that government leads to growth ;)

T/D, jtorranc, and I all sort of agree on that.

Why are we wasting time talking about websites and publicity? Sheesh.

limiting is our maps

An AR outfit two hours west that is vastly better at promotion throws together impromptu score o events on USGS, charges 1.5-3x what we charge, and gets 2x the people as we do on our much nicer o maps. And we have 3x the population!

That's because the AR outfit is genuinely incentivized to grow its attendance. Most clubs, no matter what some of their loud members may say, are only secondarily incentivized to grow attendance (only inasmuch as it yields an increased pool of volunteers). Most clubs are member-service organizations laser-focused on fulfilling the short-term needs of their existing members. So, maps first, publicity down the bottom, if they can at all afford it.

If the federation were to do this, the expertise wouldn't have to be in-house. OUSA could hire a qualified/talented website designer to do it. Which is not to say that I necessarily think this should be dealt with at the "federal", rather than "state" level. But I suppose each handle it on their own, or go with the federal plan. If there were a number of clubs that wanted help, it might be more cost effective to hire one designer rather than having each small club seek out their own professional. Is this worthwhile? I have no opinion.

How about we mandate that each "state" develop their own website for the "exchange" of information on orienteering? If they don't, we could have the "federal" "government" design a beautiful, functional website that would surely work just as well, with no technical difficulties, while communicating well with all kinds of underlying databases of information that need to be displayed on the website, from all kinds of legacy systems? I think we are "insured" (sic) that will work out well.

If only OUSA were based in Birmingham. We could call this new web site assistance program for clubs "O-'Bama-care."

OK, I'll stop now.

Funny thing, the trailrunning world is rapidly converging on a single beautiful, functional website that serves as both a portal for events and a central repository for results. All driven by market forces, with no federation or governments in sight.

Magical things happen when event organizers have a few bucks left over from registrations to support useful vendors. Don't be cheap, it doesn't help.

Same for road races: http://athlinks.com/
There are popular sites for triathlon events, road bike events (more fragmented by regions though) etc.... Nothing new or special.

To be fair there are sites like that for orienteering as well: here

@T/D - going off on a bit of a tangent there - it's not as though the existence of that web site obviates the need for trail race organisers to have their own web sites. Or, if it does, someone ought to tell Coastal Trail Runs, Inside Trail Racing, Zoom Running Events, etc.

Oh it certainly doesn't obviate the need; that's why I pointed it out as a portal. On the other hand, you don't have to have a separate website any longer, you can just give info to Ultrasignup and the runners magically materialize; this is almost certainly less effective than also maintaining your own site, but may be more efficient.

Mr Wonderful mentions a problem that I think is much bigger than our promotional skills, though I also think he doesn't have part of his analysis quite right. I think that the AR group is putting on an event that is much more beginner-friendly because while the O-maps may seem much nicer to those that have been orienteering regularly for a few years. the USGS maps actually seem a lot nicer to the majority of beginners. They are much less detailed, hence pre-simplified. It isn't so easy to be overwhelmed by the detail and not know what things on the map to look for. The contour lines show the major land features, and don't become so convoluted that it is near impossible to tell the basic shape of the land as happens so often on many of our favorite orienteering maps. Because the contours are more generalized and there aren't any point features, the control locations are easier (orange course level), and usually there is not much need to find first an attack point then the control--effectively the control IS the attack point. And the score format means that one isn't automatically disqualified if one control just can't be located, it just means a little lower score, not relegated to the list of failures at the bottom of the results. It basically represents a shift in the balance of the physical vs. mental/technical skills that in orienteering take most people several years to build up to a really useful level, a time span for which many people simply don't have the patience. Our maps are better for those that have learned to appreciate them after many years of use, but actually NOT as nice for most first-timers as the more familiar USGS maps are. I realize that most AP readers will disagree strongly with this point of view, but I think most of the problem of growing the sport of orienteering is the small fraction of our first-time attendees who ever come back to a second event, not the number that we manage to attract once by an attractive website.

That is, given your single, anecdotal point of evidence, I'm disputing your claim that website overhauls lead to club growth.

(sarcasm on) I apologise profusely for my failure to seize dictatorial power over several other orienteering clubs so I could conduct proper randomised trials of various strategies for club growth. Also for lacking another Earth on which I could have allowed my doppelganger to lead alt-QOC while keeping the doppelganger of our previous webmaster exclusively in charge of our web presence, having alt-Greg and alt-Kathleen do whatever publicity they wished provided it didn't involve HTML and holding all other factors constant. (sarcasm off)

More seriously, if Greg (and Kathleen, who has been concentrating on social media) thought time spent working on the web site was less well spent than time spent on other publicity efforts, I'm sure Greg would spend a lot less time working on the web site. Maybe turn it over to someone else. It's not as though he doesn't have plenty of other work to do. But it anyone wants to know what they've been up to in detail, better take it up with them.

This may not be suitable for a large spread-out country, but I've often thought that some occasional face-to-face workshops would be valuable. There are coding tools and techniques I'd like to know about, editorial issues, presentation and appearance of course, handling the range of stuff from archive thru reference to current and transient, controlled content vs public input etc. I don't know what I don't know but I've got the feeling there's stuff to learn.

I've heard anecdotal evidence that since we rebuilt our website newcomers have had a much more positive experience with it.

It doesn't so much matter if your website looks pretty, but the information MUST be there, and it must be easy to find. Our new site (and the Eventor backend) makes it so much easier to do the basics like 'where is the event?', which then means we don't get emails saying "I tried to come to your event but the only directions I could find where "It's near Sawyers Valley" and I went to Sawyers Valley and there was no signs." (because it was 15k beyond the town...)

While the same information could probably be found on the old site, it was harder to find and much harder to maintain - IMO a big part of a good website is how easy it is to put the information up. If Greg Lennon walked in front of a bus tomorrow, how easy would it be for someone else to maintain your (jtorranc's) site, or does it only work because he pours lots of hours into it?

It doesn't so much matter if your website looks pretty, but the information MUST be there, and it must be easy to find.

Hear, hear!

Also, functional with older web browsers etc. Simple and easy to read on everything from ancient desktops to the newest, tiniest watch phones. No need to download anything (like Adobe Acrobat or Java) or interact with glitchy sites like Google docs. And while Farcebook is a great supplement for those who use it, all event info should also be on a simple conventional website where anybody can view it.

And for cryin' out loud, we orienteers make great maps. So why do so many clubs insist on putting links to google maps or mapquest or similar, that often don't work quite right because the webmaster forgot to mark the meet site, or the software just doesn't want to play well with your device or browser. Simple written directions from the nearest major highway, and a simple to-scale locator map of same is hard to beat.

Also, functional with older web browsers etc.

To a point. Seriously people, it's time to stop using IE6. No, really. :)

Juffy it is good job you did not go under a bus before the old OAWA site was retired then!

Oh, but now that we're using Joomla you don't really care? Thanks dad, I'm off to play on the railway tracks. ♥

This is a good discussion. I don't have any answers, though. Would it be useful for three or four of the posters to get together and organize the pros and cons and if the pros outnumber the cons make a proposal to figure out what needs to be done to help clubs with their web sites. As some suggest, some groups are making "national" websites that their clubs can use. Is this a model that we should use and how much would it cost? OUSA is looking for ways to expand our sport and make things easier for clubs which work with volunteers. If I can do anything to help the process, let me know.

Perhaps somebody in OUSA should talk to the Australians about their experience adopting Eventor?

Juffy ♥ Eventor.

I may have mentioned this previously.

How did "help clubs with web design" become "force clubs to accept web design help"?

Due largely to the demographics of orienteering, many clubs have been blessed with at least one member who enjoyed web design so much that they were willing to devote countless free(?) hours to setting up modern, highly functional sites for their clubs. Being from a club that is not so blessed, I would see help with web design from OUSA -- even if it were just assistance with cloning another, willing club's site -- as a welcome benefit.

How did "help clubs with web design" become "force clubs to accept web design help"?

I don't think it has and, for the record, I'm not on board with acjospe's musing that we might somehow punish clubs that were resistant to suggestions their web sites needed work. Nor even with the naming and shaming approach of publishing a list of the worst club web sites. Web improvement grants would be nice but I expect there would be howls of outrage if we proposed putting a line item in the budget that would suffice to pay for professional makeovers for the web sites of let's say 5 clubs (is T/D's $2000 figure reasonable? if that would buy a great web site, what would buy a merely pretty good one?) - there are a lot of other things the money could be put to that have existing constituencies. I think taking existing web sites deemed good and, with the assistance of their current owners/operators, cloning them is probably the way to go in the short term.

If Greg Lennon walked in front of a bus tomorrow, how easy would it be for someone else to maintain your (jtorranc's) site, or does it only work because he pours lots of hours into it?

Actually, Dan Felitsky stepping in front of a bus would be a bigger problem, though only in the medium to long term - if Greg were incapacitated we would be able to maintain our schedule, post results and otherwise keep the site running more or less as usual indefinitely (other parts of club operations would probably take more of a short term hit - Greg does a lot). It would be when we needed to make significant changes to the Drupal underlying the site that we'd have to either get smart about that ourselves or pay someone to figure it out for us. It's a concern but not one with drop dead urgency.

$2k will buy you decent graphic design but not any underlying database work. That'd be more expensive. Where I am, the volunteer designer set up the event databases and the wiki (but not registration or results) about 10 years ago, they are working well, but the graphic end needs major work, it's essentially a text-based site. (The volunteer disappeared shortly after and hasn't been spotted orienteering in that decade, but is happily trailrunning.)

All we need is a basic CMS site accessible by three-four core people. Perhaps a page for the schedule, and perhaps news update page and basic graphics. Most of this stuff you can get for free or almost free.

And then there would be links to facebook, attackpoint, winsplits, and OUSA registration when we need it.

Maybe I am missing something but I do not think OUSA should get into website design business. And as for punishing clubs with poorly designed pages, they are punishing themselves enough already.

Well, I can see OUSA's concern. Clubs are doing a ton of stupid things that are destined to hurt their attendance in the long run, and revenue has to come from somewhere.

I guess we can just sign up for whyjustrun.ca and get a custom domain pointing to them. Their template looks fine and they seem to have a decent mobile version as well.

It doesn't so much matter if your website looks pretty, but the information MUST be there, and it must be easy to find.

For purposes of attracting newbies, I think it does matter that your web site be pretty. In particular, I think your web site needs to present an aspirational picture of orienteering such that people will be inclined to think "Yes, I want to be like the people in those pictures/have the kind of fun they're obviously having/spend time in the beautiful places far from the beaten path they're going.".

I could link to contrasting examples of sites that have and lack that but I think I'll go the thought experiment route instead. Imagine a well-organised text-based club web site on which all the information you could ever want about the club and its events is there and easy to find. Now add to the home page pictures of stereotypical middle-aged to elderly orienteers in their (possibly mismatched) faded pyjama-like Ultrasport O suits that they've been patching and mending for two or three decades because orienteers are thrifty like that. Does anyone think you haven't just made the site less effective at attracting new orienteers? Conversely, instead add some pictures or a slide show with well-dressed orienteers of all ages in action, including juniors obviously having fun, solo and en famille, groups taking a leisurely, sociable stroll around a course, scenic terrain typical of the area, and any other images that portray orienteering as challenging and enjoyable. If anyone who isn't autistic wants to seriously argue that that isn't an improvement over plain text, I'll be amazed.

Yes jtorranc!

jtorranc, I decided to find some examples from a different sport.

The Witney Synchronized Swimming club's site has lots of stuff on it but it's not very attractive. Even though there's a link up front about taster classes, my eyes missed it while first browsing the site because of the colors (lower in the visual hierarchy, I guess). If I were looking for an activity for my child, this club's site wouldn't inspire me very much.

The KW Synchro Club's site is better. A big picture of smiling, matching kids right up front. Very prominent information on when and where to try synchro (and that's it's free!). It's not a beautiful site, but it is far more effective than the first. My hypothetical child might actually end up at a synchronized swimming session after visiting that site.

It seems to me that OUSA's role should be something like a club development advisor informing clubs that a good website is a good investment. Maybe a page on the OUSA site with a few resources, or links to clubs with good sites who have indicated a willingness to share their template and/or recommend a designer.

Also, Eventor.

One wonders how many starts $2k of web design buys versus $2k of facebook ads.

A big picture of smiling, matching kids right up front.

Though the third girl in the line will rip your liver out if you don't sign up.

I would guess that if your facebook ad points to an unattractive website, probably the web design is a better place to start.

I always envisioned pointing the fb ad at the corresponding facebook event page. Stay on the platform they are engaged with, and hope their friends notice their interest.

Mr Wonderful, it's a lot more complicated than that. Facebook is part of the feeder system and is important but eventually that feeder system will take them through the website which has a broader reach than Facebook. I would definitely say put the money to the website before putting funds into Facebook. Think about the various paths from first contact through to repeat customers, find the weaknesses your organization has in that pathway, particularly those that are along multiple pathways, and fix those first. Your website will almost always be the the most important thing to get right.

Kwsynchro actually has more than just one picture on their website. I refreshed the web page at least 6-7 times and got a whole new picture every time. All were of happy smiling kids or older girls (of course) with one exception...

A good example of one of the basic rules of web design that we teach - a picture of a smiling female or a ditto family with kids is never wrong.

our current better web site is a big part of why QOC has been growing strongly during my tenure as president . It certainly isn't my visionary leadership

now have an iPhone and Android app made, and grow another two-fold...

It is a matter of time. They already have the iPad registration app.

on the theme of

how to attract newbiew to try this thing called Orienteering...

one word: Food

This past weekend there was a new event in Pittsburgh called Pierogi Festival. What happened is that throngs of people showed up. The drove to the event, had to find parking, had to walk a bit, and then waited on line, some for two hours. It stunned the organizers, who showed up only with a limited supply of pierogies. Imagine if you had a meet with a 100 maps, and 1000 people showed up. In some way, I suspect the reason that the Raccoongaine always meets the 150 people max capacity is because of the freshly-cooked hot meal (album1, album2) prepared in a commercial kitchen in the facility.

Would it be useful for three or four of the posters to get together and organize the pros and cons and if the pros outnumber the cons make a proposal to figure out what needs to be done to help clubs with their web sites.

I'm not sure that's precisely what the agenda for the first meeting would consist of but I'd be willing to serve on an ad hoc committee to plan OUSA's salvation from lamentable club web sites. Although if there are enough others willing, letting them get on with it while I focus on QOC would also be a fine plan. Cristina, Mike, Guy, etc. - who else (or instead) would be up for it?

Guy would like to personally save DVOA. I'm not how much more bandwidth he'll have.

Kwsynchro actually has more than just one picture on their website. I refreshed the web page at least 6-7 times and got a whole new picture every time. All were of happy smiling kids or older girls (of course) with one exception...

Ah, that explains it. Took a number of refreshes before the liver-ripper appeared.

(One thing that site could use, though, is a more prominent indication of where the hell they are located.)

LAOC paid for website development in 2010. It proved very quickly to be a failure; late, less capability than requested, and hard to update when we finally got it online. Saying you'll hire a website designer doesn't mean they go away and bring back a finished product. We had a volunteer who knew we needed a new site, but wasn't familiar managing that sort of job (who is?), nor did they have time to manage it. I don't know how much was spent on it, but I believe it was several thousands.

Some of our club members searched the US clubs' websites and asked those that met our needs if they'd be willing to discuss their design with us. Several didn't reply. Dan Felitsky was immensely kind to provide a shell of a website for us, and one of our volunteers took the lead to learn enough Drupal to complete it and manage it. Others have been learning how to do things ever since.

We've had many more new inquires and it's easy to give access to different people to do different things. There are technical difficulties, such as, it's easy to corrupt the database; the create an account feature doesn't have enough protection from spambots; the articles are FIFO, so they get buried over time. Even so, we're really happy with it.

In terms of exposure, we've also been benefiting from a guy who posts selected LAOC events to his LAOutdoors Meetup group. I'd suggest using Meetup to supplement your club's website. They provide a handy shell, you can post pictures, make each event exciting, and it tends to draw in the single crowd. You need to have a volunteer who's willing to act as "host".

The other thing we do is offer a monthly e-letter signup on the website. Our is through MailChimp. We post teasers about our events, as well as regionally interesting ones. The list growth has been steady since implementation in September last year, and puzzlingly, somewhat international.

It would be better for the organization, OUSA, to have some standard website available for clubs to switch to if they wanted, then for each club to have to pay for their own implementation. The volunteers we have are much more valuable putting on events, than doing unpaid software development.

@j-man: I'm pretty tight on bandwidth these days, but if I had some, HVO would have to be first in line for salvation.

Regarding the DVOA site: IMO its results pages were the gold standard. I hope they survive its resurrection.

John,
When you first posted the question despite two people responding before your posting time I thought the question was going to go nowhere. Now there are so many ideas and opinions floating around that good ideas are getting lost.
Here's my list of good ideas from posts above:
A good functional attractive and easy to update website is important for every club.
A good website means a good image for the club and the sport.
There are good websites out there.
There are templates of good websites out there.
Rather than having O-USA re-inventing the wheel there should be a nudge by O-USA to get the good templates in to the hands of those that need. Or perhaps just the clubs in need (as LAOC was) just need to ask the clubs that have the solution for a helping hand.
Shortcuts around websites such as facebook and Meet UP can cover some ground but they are not nearly as effective at recruiting, publicizing or growing a club as a good website is.
Finally I don't know what is behind it but the National (ice) Hockey League, its affiliated American Hockey League and a number of other minor leagues have all their teams using the same design/ template for their team websites. If its a good idea for them.....

I think for an action sport as ours a good video will do a lot. Here is a local event director with good marketing skills you might know making a video about trail running. Nothing flashy, noting crazy. Just professional looking work, with down to earth next door guy experience. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTIn-7AG3Ds

facebook [is] not nearly as effective at recruiting, publicizing or growing a club as a good website is

How does a website that exists by itself in a vacuum recruit, publicize, or grow a club more effectively than fb, which by its nature generates exposure?

Might be a fun experiment - have a meet that exists on the website but not facebook, and have a meet that exists on facebook but not the website, and see how the attendance shakes out.

@Nikolay - I'm by no means fully in the loop but I'm fairly certain someone on the OUSA board is currently working on a proposal to pay someone in the business of making action sport videos to do one for OUSA.

Cristina, Mike, Guy, etc. - who else (or instead) would be up for it?

So Guy is otherwise occupied and what was I thinking, of course Mike Minium is insanely busy. I have no idea just how much in demand Cristina's time is but teaching isn't a cakewalk. Regardless, one thing eddie and I can agree on - we shouldn't mount an effort to improve existing club web sites based purely on my notion of what constitutes a good web site so I'd really like to have at least a couple of other people independently rate the existing sites so we can compare notes and come up with some recommendations. If no one here (participating or lurking) wants to do that, I guess I'll have to cast a net wider than Attackpoint.

Having done such an exercise in the past on OUSA's behalf, and as the current OUSA VP of Club Development, I'd recommend we first find out which US clubs are currently both interested in growth and want external advice on the best way(s) to potentially achieve it. Then, for those clubs, it's a matter of a SWOT analysis or the equivalent; as several posts have already implied, primary and secondary rate limiting factors may have nothing to do with website design and are likely to vary widely between clubs.

Club leaders: if you're willing to change things up a bit in the interest of increasing attendance, contact me.

APletes: willing to serve on review panels to assess another club's website, maps, marketing, access and permitting issues, volunteer recruitment and retention, finances and the like? Being able to keep things in confidence and having a constructive attitude is pretty essential to this sort of role, so admittedly it isn't for everyone!

Hey all,

I'm one of the WhyJustRun developers, currently living in Vancouver. We designed our web app to be easily extensible to other clubs. At the moment, we have GVOC, FWOC, Kootenay OC, SAGE, VICO, Whistler, and Stars O using the site, and several other clubs are in the testing phase. All clubs in Canada post their events on WhyJustRun to show on the national calendar and to count event participation for insurance.

If you're interested in trying it out for your club, send us an email at support@whyjustrun.ca, we can set a site up for you to try out really quickly. If you decide to switch, you just have to provide us a domain name to serve your site from.

Southern Michigan OC is the first US club to be testing out our site, and we hope to have more US clubs on board soon!

The great thing is our database is unified across clubs, so we can automatically show events happening at neighbouring clubs on your WhyJustRun page. Also, user accounts are shared across clubs so you don't need to have different passwords etc. The more clubs using WhyJustRun, the more useful it gets!

Also, every time we improve the site, it is great to see the enhancements applied across so many clubs. My primary goal for WhyJustRun is to improve the visibility of the sport, which is why I think having a decently attractive and usable website is key.

We also integrate with your Facebook Page to show club news on the website, and I'm interested in adding more social integration in the future...

Check out gvoc.whyjustrun.ca for an example of what can be done with WhyJustRun.

Russell