Discussion: condes relay question

New to relay setting and new to condes...
If I'm setting a (3 leg) relay with x forks per relay leg, but team numbers are low enough that having 3 to the power of x course variations won't be necessary, what I'd like to do is constrain the course variations so that the 'option' that each competitor has at one of the forks also defines what they will have at another fork (effectively becomes one fork that occurs at two places in the course). So instead you'd end up with 3 to the power of (x-1) variations. Condes relay 'help' tells me that I can do that (thanks, I came up with the idea anyway), but as far as I could see it was a lacking on detail of how to use the relay course generating to do it. Anyone out there figured it out themselves?

What version of Condes are you using?

9.08

There are at least two types of forks in Condes 9. One is named something like "leg fork". You want that, not the other kind. (Sorry---condes not on this computer.)

Have you entered forks before? You must double click on the course name (left side bar). You should see a single list of control numbers arranged vertically. You need to enter the number of legs/forks to the left. Then the "insert leg fork" (?) becomes clickable. Highlight a control, then insert the fork. Now you have to figure out the interface. You can insert on the number (highlighted boxes), or between the numbers (a little insert symbol). You can't type them in---you must highlight the spot then use the arrow to insert the control numbers. I go in circles the few few controls, but then I figure out the constraints and it goes smoothly.

It's really good to do the XML 2.0 or XML 3.0 course export and do a test import into your scoring software. I've only used forks in OS (relay) software, not in OE (one event), but I understand OE can handle it---I may be wrong.

The important thing to note is IOF rule 16.6
In relay competitions, the controls shall be combined differently for the teams, but all teams shall run the same overall course.

Condes has two fork options, normal fork and leg fork. The difference between the two is that with a normal fork, any team member can take any tine in the fork, whereas with a leg fork you specify which leg runner will take which tine.

Taking a simple but nonsensical example, if you have two forks, both of which are defined as leg forks, you end up with 3 courses (i.e. a Motala relay). If you have a regular fork and a leg fork, you end up with 6 combinations (shown under the Relay/Team Combinations menu).

If you select a leg fork, Condes pops up a Leg distribution dialog box with a table headed A, B, C (for fork tines), and by default 1, 2, 3 in the row of the table for relay leg runner (i.e. leg 1 runs tine A, leg 2 tine B etc). To rearrange the distribution, click and drag the leg runners to the tine columns.

If you experiment with the regular and leg forks, and check the team combinations listing, you will get a feel for how Condes works.

Have you entered forks before?

That's a very personal question, and I do not believe we have been introduced. *glove slap*

Another way to explain the difference betweeen normal forks and leg forks is this:

Normal forks make you define all the forks individually in the scoring software, so (for 3 AB forks) maps can be printed as AAA, BBB, as well as AAB, ABA, BAA, ABB, BBA, and BAB, which is 8 options, 2*2*2.

Leg Forks lock the options from the three different forks, so you can only assign AAA and BBB.

I think of leg forks as helping to remove controls from a longer course to make a shorter course. You can use drastically different numbers of controls between A and B forks. An A fork might have 6km of controls for Leg 1 of a relay, but the B option might have zero to remove that 6km for leg 2 runners.

{Disclaimer: My brain hasn't fully recovered from last weekend yet. I may be wrong.}

What you want is called "bind forks". Don't know why. As ever in CONDES, you have to rootle around the menus to find what you want.

In Condes 9, bind forks are called coupled forks (search for "coupling" in help).

To assign a coupling group, in the Course dialog box, select a fork and right click, the Couple fork... option is enabled.

thanks graeme and Hawkeye, that last bit is hopefully exactly what I wanted. Edited: sorry, my stress was showing a bit there. Lesson is to never agree to use unfamiliar software in the lead-in to a major event...

Finn is very helpful - I 've always had prompt responses to the queries I have posted on the Condes Support forum.

Second that opinion that Finn is very responsive.

I've contacted Finn very late US time, and found fixes waiting to be downloaded in my inbox the next morning. With the club license, the fast support, and just how good the software is anyway, it's the best value of all the software our club buys.