Discussion: Your Club's MTBO Interest?

Now with the World MTBO and World Masters MTBO Championship events over in Poland, the US orienteering focus will shift away from mountain bike orienteering and back to other thinks (like SKIO and Foot Orienteering)... or will it? What is your local club's interest in MTBO after 3 years of World MTBO Championships and three consecutive US MTBO Teams racing overseas? Does your club care? Are members asking for more MTBO events? Or is it still to early to tell if orienteers like their orienteering classic or mountain biking? The Orienteering USA calendar for 2014 and 2015 would suggest that MTBO is still a grass roots movement being pushed by only a few clubs and blogs like MTBO America. But significant resources and treasure went into sending nine American MTBO athletes to Poland this year. Does the general orienteering population on Attack Point care?

I can't speak for all of OCIN, but we have a lot of mountain bikers, and at least five maps with pretty decent MTB trails. We might have to look farther to find suitable maps for Long courses.

One thing I'd really like to see is an MTBO map archive, such as with DOMA, so people can see good maps and good courses, and what other clubs are doing. Is there a good place online for international maps?

Also, is there an affordable option for map boards? I'm considering organizing a club purchase, if there is interest. However, it seems like there are a lot of them out there, so perhaps it's better to let it develop naturally. It seems like the map board is a hurdle to getting started.

Seconding a repository, or a directory of online course consultants. There are a few people interested in at least trying MTBO at my club, but no potential host has actually had the opportunity to run a course given I don't recall one offered in a five hour radius.

leafbreeze brings up a good point, and as the head of the MTBO US effort, I definitely encourage the discussion. I actually did a poll last year after the OUSA team returned from Estonia, and it helped guide this year's efforts, and I will be circulating another poll now that our OUSA Team is back as well.

Regarding maps: please contact me if your club is willing to share MTBO maps for distribution online. So far, clubs been a bit shy about letting OUSA place their maps online for free distribution, but if they are willing, so are we. One of the best ways to find MTBO maps online is to search RouteGadget sites for MTBO events.

As to map boards, OUSA distributes the AutoPilot map board (in three styles), both because they are a sponsor of Team USA and because our team members feel they are the best. Head to http://orienteeringusa.org/us-teams/mountain-bike/... to place an order. A small % of each sale supports the MTBO team.

As for the discussion about ways to promote the growth of MTBO, please do suggest things for OUSA to consider, either publicly or privately. Besides having clubs involved, having third parties (i.e. adventure race event directors, for example) host MTBO events is quite likely to start up in 2015.

In addition to volunteering suggestions, feel free to contact me if you have time to volunteer (to make your idea or someone else's happen). OUSA can do a lot, as the last three years of MTBO growth has shown, and will do even more in the future with your help.

Speaking for my (remote/regional area) local interest / uptake - care factor is very low, it's more a novelty-type activity for people who like MTBing. A bit like the Canoe-O novelty orienteering from a few decades ago. Yes it can be fun - but the subset of participants is limited (almost) to 'map readers who can ride a bike'. The challenge is to convert bike riders vaguely interested in learning to read a map to coming to MTBO events.

I think a clear sign that clubs are starting to show more interest in MTBO is the hosting of actual MTBO events. There was significant talk about the 2013 team going back to their clubs and getting something going. But they were mostly one-off's. Hopefully the 2014 team will have better luck. Look forward to seeing what the clubs are thinking via another poll and how their responses match up to last year's results! I know QOC tries to push two MTBO events out each year (Spring and Fall), with the next one coming up on September 21st. Are their more clubs out there trying to do the same?

I think you should invite a keen Australian MTBOer to your fine country to show people what they are doing wrong :-) (all expenses paid of course)

That's a nice offer tRicky, I had no idea you were so flush with funds.

Can't you just tell us what you're doing wrong without the travel, tRicky?

You're all more interested in foot orienteering than mountain bike orienteering? Priorities, people!

Tooms, you seem to have a poor grasp of the English language.

To be fair though, Tooms has the right of it. Here in the second best WA where I've been the MTBO Convenor for the past several years, I am struggling to figure out how to improve numbers. When I started I went on a promotional drive but soon realised that didn't work. Regular MTBers didn't want to have to ride and think at the same time. The only way I could increase numbers was to hold and promote an event the weekend before an AR - where map reading was already a prerequisite - for an event that a bunch of newbies would be attending, then they'd come along for 'training' (but ultimately not come back again afterwards).

Here we have probably three riders that treat the sport seriously and a whole bunch of others who do it either socially or as filler. We have around a half dozen riders (now) who are dedicated enough to travel interstate to compete but that's it.

I'd love for the sport to grow in stature in the US and anywhere else so that World Cup events weren't confined to Europe and the Aussies and Americans got on well together at last year's World Champs. I am disappointed I didn't get to travel across this year but there's only so many holidays I'm allowed to take and so many sports I do (all map based, of course) that travel become prohibitive.

Would love to have you over tRicky! After getting a chance to mountain bike all around the Northern Territory when I was stationed in Darwin with the US Navy, I would love to show you some equally great spots here in Virginia - but with more trees, less crocs, and cooler weather!

But you make a great point -- American's should be emulating the Australian MTBO model, not European. And we could learn a thing or two about getting national support for MTBO from Australia's example! But I'm the voice in the wilderness over here. I know MTBO can work in the US -- it just needs the right push!

I don't know how the European model works. All I know is they think it's too far to go to MTBO events halfway across their own (small) continent, let alone to the other side of the world!

With a rag-tag band of enthusiasts, sometimes you can surprise the world. One thing round here is that there's a neighbouring country, getting a group to go there is cheaper than Europe, good fun, increases the competition in both countries, and raises the profile. Does Canada do MTBO?

DVOA has hosted mtbo events in 97,98,06. In general, I don't think the active club members (consistent volunteers) have a large (true) Mountain Biking base, but we do have many members who are active adventure racing. Although, I am personally interested in trying it and course setting. I

We did have 37 people participate in a road bike/foot-o combination at our summer picnic. The key there was designing a course targeting at our current membership base. A bigger turnout might have been possible if a 24-hour AR wasn't happening the same weekend.

Maybe there are other parts of the US where it isn't such a problem but here in the Mid-Atlantic, I'd say the main thing we're doing wrong is failing to live near enough complex trail networks that are open to mountain biking. I don't know about Australia but it certain looks from here as though the history of long term human occupation of the landscape in much of Europe has created vastly more suitable MTBO venues than we have here and I think this is the main limit on growth. That QOC looks relatively good putting on up to 2 events per annum on the same two venues all the time (though we have another couple possibilities) speaks volumes about the current obstacles to MTBO growth - hardly anyone is going to make MTBO their primary sport if they have to travel hundreds of miles in order to race more than twice annually.


Or is it still to early to (sic) tell if orienteers like their orienteering classic or mountain biking?

They aren't mutually exclusive.

The MTBO Information page on the Orienteering USA web site currently features an article entitled "MTBO Barnstorming Tour Will Span the USA."

The MTBO Events page lists events in the USA as well as international events.

The MTBO Results page includes links to online maps, RouteGadget, etc.

The MTBO Archive page shows statistics on MTBO participation at Orienteering USA member club events.

Middle Run Natural Area, Newark, DE, USA, would be an excellent venue for DVOA to host an MTBO event. The Singletracks web site ranks it at the top of their list of "The BEST Mountain Bike Trails in Delaware".

Here is a link to the information page for The Unofficial White Clay & Middle Run Trail Map.

Other links to MTBO-appropriate trails in Delaware include White Clay Creek State Park, White Clay Creek State Park - Carpenter, White Clay Creek State Park - Judge Morris, White Clay Creek State Park - Possum Hill, and Lums Pond State Park.

To answer Michael Wood's question, the next two MTBO events in Canada are:
2014 October 4 - Orienteering Ottawa, South March Highlands Conservation Forest, Carp-Hardwood Plains, ON, Canada
2014 October 19 - Stars Orienteering Club, Albion Hills Conservation Area, Palgrave, ON, Canada

Robert Buraczynski

MNOC has 2 MTB O events plus 2 AR events this year. We also have 2 MTB USA team members .

In the hot humid summer months when the woods are thick it is a nice change to be on a bike and orienteering.

LAOC has a few members with interest in MTBO, but we've still never put one on.

Any idea what this is about:

@IOFOrienteering: MTBO goes USA! IOF organises #MTBO seminars 20-29.9 around the country. More info to follow. Photo: Piotr Siliniewicz http://t.co/KkEHl6zHWH

Must be related to the link in Robert's earlier post.

The Swedish National Team's coach, Magnus Wallenborg, is going to visit during National Orienteering Week and hold clinics and whatnot. I believe he'll be at a WCOC event on the 20th and he'll definitely be at the QOC event on the 21st (here's hoping we don't get rained out). After that, Greg would know. My impression is Magnus is being deployed to places that already have some MTBO activity to give it a shot in the arm rather than trying to somehow spark things in areas with no previous MTBO activity.

Full schedule is coming out as soon as we can confirm the venues for the weeknight presentations.

MTBO events include the ones Jon mentioned (WCOC Sept. 20, QOC Sep. 21) plus one in Portland (Sept. 27).

We will also be assessing (both virtually and in person) potential MTBO terrains to prioritize for map and event development, so if you're in the US and know of a potentially great terrain to develop for MTBO, let me know directly.

Oooh I wonder if he would pop over here..

Most people would pop if they climbed one of your mountains.

In HVO-land, Blue Mtn Resn allows MTB-ing, and seems to get a lot of MTBers. No idea if being popular with both bikers and orienteers means the area would be suitable for MTBO...

Sometimes when HVO holds a meet at Blue Mountain, bikers in the parking lot seem to be interested in what we're doing. Joe B. was there last time and talked to one of them; Joe's probably your best bet for connecting the two populations, if he's interested.

Fair Hill NRMA would be good and fairly central to QOC/DVOA/SVO. That's where the 2006 event was...

http://www.dvoa.org/cgi/gadget/reitti.cgi?act=map&...

Its a huge park (at least 4 of our maps), and has a good mix.

I'm looking forward to hearing from Magnus Wallenborg. He's got a great background to help us develop the sport. He lived in the US for a couple of years (in Lawrence, KS, and Livermore, CA) so he should have a good idea of the environment for orienteering in the US and the opportunities we have. He's done a load of work to develop the sport in Sweden.

This could probably stand some updating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_bike_oriente...

It was last modified six days ago so must be relevant.

Maybe this is part of the plan, but would it make more sense to go after mountain bike groups instead of orienteering groups?

Orienteering groups are smaller, and many are already aware of MTBO and choose not to pursue it (eg: me). The biking groups are larger and have more uninitiated, so I think the potential would be greater.

It sounds like it has potential but the problem is, many people interested in maps already know about orienteering whereas mountain bikers just want to ride without having to figure out where they need to go! We get very little crossover in our local scene and in fact I only ride XC races as training for MTBO.

So would we be wasting our time approaching mtb groups tRicky?

Not necessarily but that's my experience of regular MTBers. If you can convert them to something more fun than going around in circles (going around in circles whilst reading a map, for instance) then all the better for them!

It is a challenge elsewhere, for example, in Israel where the MTBO world champ was hosted just few years ago, no formal team was present. People like Craig from QLD or Rick are holding this sport in 2 hands and hrs of dedication...it is really important discussion..

Existing MTB club riders tend to like 'racing' and so learning to slow a lot and read a map takes away their motivation/fun - at lest for a year or so, by which time they've tried and often given up. Here in WA (antipodean one) the MTB riders who have stayed - and there are very few - were those who'd already dabbled in nav-based adventure racing and had the coping skills/strategies to appreciate the need to slow down when necessary to navigate successfully.

Unlike foot orienteering and its many symbols, the ease of reading an MTBO map should hasten the transfer!

Funny, even a couple of our MTBOers last weekend did not appreciate the difference between track gradings. "I just saw a track so I rode it."

One member of our national team from last year had to be educated in the ways of track gradings at the training camp just prior to the Worlds!

Looking back this year, I've not done a single standard XC race, just one enduro and I have one more enduro to do. I generally average about one XC race per year - did two last year so I guess that average is holding for the moment.

Ori - Craig has offered me Presidency of Qld MTBO if I should move over there. I am strongly considering it... (they have around a dozen events per year and had 90+ at each of their past two events)

Pink Socks, I think the answer is both. In terms of participation, we need to target those who identify as "mountainbikers". If we only convert some foot-orienteers we have spent effort for no gain. However as noted, only a small proportion of bikers will be interested, and others will do one now and again as a novelty. They don't spend their discretionary time and money on getting good and chasing championships. Are they any different from "runners"?

In terms of competitive success though, we find that converted foot-orienteers who also enjoy riding are our stars. Some of them are just athletic marvels who excel at everything they do, and we are lucky if we can get them to fit a world championship into a busy schedule. For myself (in a club that almost closed up a dozen years ago) it was the realisation that MTBO mapping and course setting is so much easier than foot-o that attracted me. Low effort, low numbers, but good cost/benefit ratio. It introduced me to the local biking scene and now I ride with the MTB club.

I guess maybe the adventure racing market is rather small, but what about skiers? They might be more into the racing than the slowing down and map reading in the winter, but perhaps in their 'off-season' they'd enjoy a different kind of cross-training?

Potential new participants...

1. Adventure racers - offer them score events and teams classes
2. Rogainers - as above
3. Families - hold easy events in council parks and market longer events to Mum/Dad

Craig are you stalking me?

That's my job. Don't go cutting my lunch!

An extension of Craig (AKA mtbo.com.au above) 's thoughts..
Thinking out loud - some ideas that may appeal to a wider audience and may help funnel into MTBO:
Short, urban events:
I've done a few very quick urban events and they are good fun - they provide a nice quick workout and provide some interest and challenge without exhausting you or taking up your whole day
Pros:
- less travel for competitors and organisers
- simpler maps to create and navigate and simpler terrain to ride on
- attracts and appeals to a family/newbie crowd

Cons:
- only a simple training event for your core MTBO crowd (though still fun)
- it's a fair jump for the 'family crowd' to go from a 1hr cruise around urban streets/paths to a 1-2hr haul through rocks and mud! As Craig suggests (I think), perhaps market the simple/urban event to the family, then the longer more rugged events to the parents. Though I know we lost some commited MTBO riders to family commitments - perhaps the target market should be the committed bachelor/spinster? :)
- pure street events difficult to run with safety concerns - need a decent urban park network with very quiet urban streets used for connection perhaps

Cyclegaine/Score/Scatter (Rogaine style MTB events)
Craig runs a number of 'score' or 'scatter' events throughout the year - effectively short time cyclegaines (1hr/2hr/3hr). These seem popular and social
Pros:
- more social - everybody starts and finishes at the same time (roughly) and so are able to socialise and compare choices more easily
- has some automatic scaling of difficulty. If someone is slow (or wants to be) or gets horribly lost then they just get fewer points - they aren't stuck either abandoning or completing a now uncomfortable length course. As a result they hopefully finish feeling a bit shitty that they didn't do their best (don't we all :), but not completely exhausted or feeling like it's 'not for them' because they didn't finish.
- with 3/6hr time limits you attract the AR crowd
- with 1-2hr event you can attract the family/newbie crowd though you need to be careful with terrain and accessibility from urban town I imagine

Cons:
- Much of the AR crowd don't seem keen on MTBO for some reason - too short perhaps? In Queensland the once yearly 6hr Cyclegaine attracts 80 or so people, 60 of whom I've never seen at any of our monthly MTBO events. Can AR people here explain what would convert other AR people? :)
- As above, the family crowd may not make the jump to the more rugged cross country MTBOs
- Not 'real MTBO' - especially the events over 2.5hrs - still fun though, just important that the majority of events are sub 2.5hr (ish)

It seems to me MTBO is more likely to appeal to more casual "trail riding" MTBers than those who enjoy circuit racing. But maybe that is just my own bias. I like that I'm generally out on my own not racing with anyone, holding anyone up or being held up by anyone. Not sure if that is any help with finding such people. Does the time trial club still run MTB time trials, that might be closer.
At one stage a club was running MTB criteriums at Garvey Park, might be a good candidate site for a short urban event.

Yeah that was PerthMTB club I think. I've long considered Garvey Park a candidate for an urban event but I'm not sure what the permission issue is like there (they haven't run the dirt crits for a couple of years now) and it may not be big enough to run a decent length event.

A few years ago (2011) I coordinated the Southern Series in MTBO (UK), based around the southern central counties. I did a lot of promotional work at local foot-o events, handing out fliers, talking to finishers etc, and our events regularly attracted 70-100 athletes. When you consider that any event that year (or before or after 2011) attracts 20-30 participants with no promotion, I would say advertising the event helps increase numbers.

Many competitors were foot-orienteers who fancied a change that weekend, since many were 40+ and biked a few times a week to save their joints/were injured and couldn't run. We also had a few junior athletes who came with Dad. Some of them were actually really talented.

I then moved abroad the following year and there was no-one available to keep the interest going, so the sport has declined again.

MTB'ers are either weekend warriors (not really interested in learning to read a map), or hardcore XC racers (too busy with other races). There's probably a very small percentage in there who are interested in MTBO, but without regular events in their area (within 1-2 hrs) they are unlikely to attend the one event near them per year.

Regular advertisement of MTBO races is probably the key (even though hardwork), and ensuring regular events in the local area. Without events, most potentially interested parties would probably not be interested in finding out when the next event might be. Regular events, regular publicity = regular riders.

Creating an event with some excitement seems to work too, rather than just a standard 'hidden in the woods' foot-o event. Some commentary, hot food van, event arena somewhere public, obvious finish straight, etc etc. There is a UK club who host a yearly MTBO competition around a country park (forested, regular track network, mostly easy biking), and have the finish arena pretty much in the car park. With the atmosphere of athletes already there, and the bike hire 1 min walk away, the club often gets several families and many individuals to have a go. But no beginner would then want to travel 6 hrs to the next event in 2 months time, so the interest wanes quickly.

Of course, USA and Aus are lucky to have supportive federations... You could be fighting a battle in Norway to be even allowed to host an event. In fact, if we phone the national office to speak MTBO matters, suddenly everyone apart from the receptionist is 'on vacation'.

There's a Mike Duffy in Australia? He should Google Mike Duffy Canada as he might want to assume an alias if he ever comes to Canada.

In Florida where I spend almost half the year they don't have mountains but they have a hell of a lot of mountain bikers. There are well-organized and dedicated MTB clubs led by those who like their riding wild. In place of mountains they look for the gnarliest terrain they can find which is usually sequential lines of knolls beside excavated canals or piles of scrapped overburden and the pits left by strip mining operations. When these leaders ride they ride hard and as if they had blinders on. It seems they want a physical workout, not a mental one.
Underneath that hard core there is a soft mass of casual riders who would love to try bike orienteering if only for the fact that stopping to read the map gives them an excuse to stop.
Someone here mentions small urban events. Why not go for large urban events?
Or again in Florida I've found and mapped twoareas where back in the 60s and 70s large communities had their roads laid out and graded and the lots, thousands of them, were sold to young baby boomers with the expectation that they would build their retirement homes there. So you see mazes of vehicle track quality roads with few or no houses. They are ideal for starter MTB-O. I have one community interested in hosting an event and a promise that the mayor and city manager want to participate but in this case I have no meet structure or support to put on an event. tRicky instead of Queensland why not spend your summer in Florida? (but check your snappy comments; in Florida it is legal to defend oneself with a gun)

Yeah I am scared of getting shot in the States. I would make an easy target and I reckon anyone could successfully defend their actions in court with "But he wrote this about me on some web forum..."

OK, can I admit I dream of adding maps to these fine races and holding real, sanctioned races under an OUSA banner, not only in Manhattan but other big cities too?

Maybe the liability laws in Australia would be more conducive though, even if not as gun friendly. Sydney or Melbourne?

You'd have to fill out 10,000 forms to have an event like that run in Aus and after that you'll have accidentally written outside of a box and they'll reject your application.

If one can get accused of recklessly endangering participants and vaguely threatened with an increase in insurance premiums for simply describing a known (but serious) hazard, with said hazard never materializing—I hope this community steers well clear of anything resembling bike messenger racing. Any bike racing? perhaps that, too. Depends on how paranoid (= cheap) the community is about its premiums.

I agree T/D, the messenger thing is stupid. But I suppose every country has an unofficial record for the coast-to-coast in a road car.

The tour by Magnus Wallenborg is under way. It would be good to follow from a distance, perhaps here or on any other website. If the latter, please post link.

Here is a link.

Robert Buraczynski

Magnus and Greg were in Lawrence, KS, last night. They gave a presentation on MTBO at Sunflower Outdoor and Bike Shop. About 15 people attended. They gave a basic overview of the sport and answered question. We gave out event fliers for our local October MTBO series.

The audience seemed interested. They had questions and most stayed around after the formal presentation and Q/A. The audience was a mix of orienteers, people who've done a little orienteering and/or adventure racing, and MTBers.

Sunflower was super-supportive. The day wasn't great for them as most of their managers are on a trip to Colorado. It was very good of them to accommodate us even if it wasn't the best timing.

After the presentation a bunch of us went to dinner a couple of blocks away and sat at the table talking orienteering, mapping, MTBO, etc.

I think Magnus enjoyed his short visit to Lawrence. He and his wife, Sanna, spent a year in Lawrence about 15 years ago. They bought their first MTB's at Sunflower.

Magnus and Greg are on the road towards Golden, CO, right now. They started the day with a daybreak ride on one of the nicer local MTB trails (the river trail) and did the local community a favor by removing spider webs on the trail.

Don't worry, they'll be back...

The spider webs I mean. The spiders' maxim is If at first you don't catch your prey, try, try again.