Discussion: DRAFT

= what this still is...

Cool! I think it's great to have some rigorous standards for the kids to shoot for/be held to.

One question: why pull-ups? I don't see why an orienteer needs to be able to do pull-ups. Core strength, yes, but not pull-ups specifically.

The boys' woods standard seems substantially easier to me than the track standard (perhaps because of my tendencies). Good goals, though. I may try to meet them at some point. I wouldn't exclude a top junior if they can't do better than a 5:30 mile now nor 5:00 in a year.

And I suspect you mean feats rather than feet's.

PS Good work, the lot of you. And Happy New Year!

I suspect there are some impressive orienteers out there who can do few if any pull-ups.

But I also suspect most or all of those (us?) could train to do them pretty quickly.

Even if that were true (I think it would take me a couple of months of hard training to be able to do 1 or 2 pullups), why? What benefit for an orienteer?

There are a lot of things that one could train to do. For pullups specifically, there's an argument (which could be disputed) that adding upper-body bulk does nothing to help, but gives you more weight to cart around. (Note that I'm pretty good at pullups, but I don't think it helps my orienteering a bit.)

Even if pushups and pullups do add to fitness, what do those tests tell you that a woods or track time trial wouldn't?

Is this a supplemental posting or is this the official location for meeting minutes and other jt info?

Bman has little ability for pullups and even less interest in doing them. I hope something as arbitrary as that doesn't squash five years of careful nurturing.

A few pullups much easier than a 5 minute mile.

If someone has the fitness to hit a certain time, why do we care how many pullups they can do? I think that upper body training should be something discussed with a coach after being selected to the standing team, not a pre-requisite.

For the record, my mile time as a junior was well under the requirement, while I've never been able to do more than 0.5 pullups.

This is a draft, so I am going to assume that Erin et al. will be revising. I agree with Anna - pullups should not be part of the requirement.

On the women's side the running, pushups, and situp requirements are all an order of magnitude easier than 2-4 pull-ups. And also much more relevant to orienteering.

When you run long night at Jukola and you have to carry a 200g map pretending to be a kite for 18km, you might be thankful for a little arm strength.

Maybe agree that those who can't do the pullups should be doing a little strength conditioning?

IIRC, Erin's philosophy is that the body must be "tuned" to have the most efficient running mechanics. He considers the upper body strength gained from pull-ups to be part of that.

@bill_l: Do you really think I would let that happen to Bman?
...Actually, I doubt Erin would let it happen either. :-)

Totally down with kids working on some upper body strength. But it seems to me that people are underestimating the difficulty of pull-ups for women. ("A little strength conditioning" would not be enough for most to be able to do a pull-up. Even "a lot of strength conditioning" won't be enough for some.) I don't think it's a big deal though, just curious. If Erin thinks they're important, and wants juniors working on them, okay. Probably won't hurt, just don't be shocked when most girls can't do a single one, even after working at it for a few months.

Pullups are very hard for some folks, particularly depending on weight. There is a guy at the crossfit gym who is enormously strong and not particularly fat, but he probably goes about 240. Struggles mightily to do even a single pullup. On the other hand, most of the relatively more fit 30-45 year old women who spend a lot of time at crossfit seem to be getting pretty good at them over time. Most of the work they do is aided by a big elastic band, but they progress through the different size bands and can eventually do some unaided.

I'm thinking pull ups shouldn't be a factor at all for women to make the junior team, but something for all juniors to work on.

The reason I have pull ups on the standard list or any physical strength standards is so I know what kids can do. If they make the team they will have a much more rigorous strength and conditioning program and I want to know what they can so I don't throw them into something they can't do. Why pull ups? One it develops strong arms an shoulders which build power into your arm carriage to accelerate faster and creates a stronger drive back witch in turn creates faster leg turnover. Can you get this same strength from other exercises? Yes. However everyone can probably find a pull up bar to try it out rather than weights or other stuff. The weekly workout routine will probably not include pull ups but will have stuff that requires arm strength and shoulder strength to do. Finally I think it is quite a good feeling for anyone to be able to pull their body weight up at least once or twice. Especially for an individual who is trying to be a high end athlete. I had good friends in college who were females who could not do a pull up but could run sub 5 min miles. I agree that a pull up might not be the greatest measure especially for a female. However my friends in college were not training to run through the woods scramble up hill pull yourself out of a gully by roots or small trees, crash through thickets of thick undergrowth climb up steep muddy hill. This is much different than running on the track or even the xc course in that you have have some strength when in the woods to get through faster. I'm not sure the high end orienteers can do a pull up or not, but I'm sure they do all kinds of strength and conditioning with weights that make them strong. Our goal is to have juniors win Jwoc and be in a place that they can step up to the woc level and do the same that takes more than just running and orienteering training. Finally the selection process for the team factors in a lot more stuff, no one who is capable of being on the team and ready to train at that level will be excluded because they can't do a pull up. If and indivisible does not make the team it will be for many more reasons than just one. The standards are a guide and will probably change over time. This is a starting point and we will continue to evaluate our own methods and what works and change them as needed based on logical evidence that is supported in reality.

Glad I saw this. Heard there were going to be some standards but didn't know what they were or were thinking.

Of course, with lots of training and focus, everyone can improve their pull-ups, push-ups, mile times, etc. The question in my mind though is where should kids be focusing their efforts? On meeting the physical requirements? or on getting better at orienteering? Ideally both, yes but, time and enthuasium are limited and I don't think it a postive direction to have kids focusing on the physical and foresaking the technical which the criteria seems to be encouraging. (i.e. compare the effort to run a 5 min mile compared to finding orange level controls)

We will be asking standing team members to train for 5 hours a week, with half of that being navigation-related. Those hours could include activities they're doing already - e.g., if they're playing soccer or doing track they'd probably just need to add some navigation training.

We'll ask them to log their training and to be in touch with Erin weekly, and interact with a local mentor or coach as well.

And I want to make sure people see that we're not requiring that a junior meet these physical fitness guidelines in order to make the team. These guidelines are things they'd be likely to achieve with training, if they're not already there. And what they actually set as their training goals once they're on the team will be worked out jointly between them, Erin and their local coach.

Erin seems to have a lot of respect for what the athlete's own dream or goal, and for what they already know about themselves. Something I think he can help kids see is what might be possible for them that they're not seeing themselves yet.

This all sounds great, I think it's fantastic that the kids will have so much guidance and such good training objectives.

In response to Carl's question.

Why focus more on physical fitness than navigation? Its a good question we are training for orienteering. What does a running time or speed or physical strength have to do with it and, shouldn't all the time that we have be put into orienteering training to maximize what we can do?

Here is what we are asking in developing the junior program. What does it take to be able to practice navigation at a high level every day of the week. I think we can all agree on the fact that training in the woods far out ways sitting on the couch looking at maps. While the mental training is important, the best way to train in on all kinds of terrain in the woods with a map practicing the skills through action, not on the couch, or on the computer. Those tools are for moments when you cant do anything else.

What would keep you from being able to Train out in the woods every day practicing orienteering. Or even on an Arial photo, or simple field map you drew to practice basic leaving the control and entering the control and punching skills.
Injuries and physical fitness. Strength and conditioning are done to prevent injuries , that is their main purpose, and to develop a strong body that can take the amount of training it takes to be a great athlete. Every day you spend injured hurt is a day missed form the daily training you need to get better, that training includes taking it easy resting, conditioning, building your fitness, and navigation ability together. No mater how much you can do on the couch when your injured it in no way makes up for real training in the woods, parks or cities. So to training well at orienteering you have to be injury free, and to be that you need to maintain the physical body.

Physical fitness and running is important because in orienteering you need a clear head when you navigating over the course of your race. If you go into oxygen debt you can not think clearly. How to you develop the ability to exchange oxygen more efficiently? By training your body to do it through interval workouts, long runs, tempo, runs etc. Once your body can exchange oxygen when your moving faster you can do that on an orienteering course faster and think more clearly while racing at a high level. The best example that comes to mind is Sergei Logvin at the ultra long champs. The guy is physically fit and won by over 10min, and at the end he looked ready to do more after 21k of physical orienteering in rain and muddy gullies. Now he had not run any races earlier that week so he was fresh for that race. But the point is that when you are physically fit the possibilities of your orienteering and what you can do open up.

Because we need physical fitness and strength to be a good oreinteer, we have to devote some time to those things. A a high level you can do all those things in one day or a few of them at least. At a lover level you have to spread them out through a training week. In this case of the standards for the junior team, they need to strength themselves so they don't get injured. They need to be able to run faster through the woods and be able to think clearly at a higher level of navigation. They also need to practice their orienteering skills. We have come up with a commitment the athletes must commit to which is a balance of all these things in their training. Over time they will improve on all levels. There is no quick remedy it take time constancy, and injury free training. We also want kids bodies to last past 40 years old, and not gt burned out.

So why not just do orienteering training every day other than the fact that resources are limited to do that at this time. When your doing something you should be 100% doing that activity. For example when you are orienteering you should not be thinking about your running form, or how fast you are going, you should be completely focused on you navigation and what it takes to get from one point to the next. When you are running the focus should be on proper form efficiency, and running economy so that you can do it with out thinking while you are orienteering. When you are doing strength and conditioning exercises you should be focusing on how your doing them. That our body is aligned and your working the muscles that are supposed to be working in that exercise.

This point brings up questions about training exercises such as running with a map. This exercise practices reading the map on the run. However you are not really orienteering, and your not focusing on your running? Is this a good exercises? its up for debate but there is plenty of evidence out there from great athletes who when they train for something they focus exactly on what they are trying to do. This allow them to make more of the time they put in on each activity its more efficient in the long run.

So what are we really trying to do. In developing the junior program we are looking at the process that it takes to be great at orienteering and a great athlete. This is applicable across every sport. There is training the skills of the sport, building up your fitness, and strengthening your body. These principals can be combined in various ways. For example when orienteering you are running which works towards the physical fitness side but it is not the focus of the activity. When running you should be paying attention to whats around you keeping your head clear, that is orienteering while running.

It's exciting to see such an emphasis on injury prevention!

I completely agree with everything that Erin says. However, the Draft standards for the team have very specific physical targets of which some seem pretty tough. And despite what Barb says about it being a guide line, the draft says they must meet the criteria or be able to within a few months. Maybe the wording needs to be tweaked. If I were a junior wanting to make the team, I would think "wow, I have to meet these physical targets so I have to concentrate my training toward that."

Please don't think that I am trying to downgrade the importance of physical training. I am not; it is just as important as technical training. However, instead of having specific physical standards for team selection, I think it would be better to have training targets. As it is, some will meet the physical requirements without too much extra stress while others will put their heart and soul into it and still never acheive the standards.

I agree. Changing the wording a little would make it better reflect Erin's explanation. In high school, I remember thinking strength training was stupid and irrelevant, so it might help to add a sentence in the actual guidelines to explain why it's important.

So what I posted was a draft of points that the selection committee will consider. The draft of the athlete's application already addresses, I think, some of the good points that you guys have made:

"If the USA Standing Team can meet these performance guidelines, it will translate to good performance at international competitions. The selection committee does not expect applicants to meet these guidelines as a requirement for joining the Team. Team members will train toward these goals, if they do not already meet them. If the selection committee invites you to apply to the Standing Team, or if you are selected for the Team, that means we believe that you can achieve most or all of these goals."

Ah, and we also have the word "target" next to "performance guidelines" in the draft application.

As to why I'm posting here instead of in more official places: I figure this is one good place to get some really useful feedback (as is JTESC). So it isn't yet ready for prime time but still at the stage where a little more visibility could help us.

I have never done a pull-up successfully in my life - not a single one - but I have won multiple US championships orienteering. Just sayin'.

One thing to add to this in terms of goals is this. In the past it was a great thing if we got a junior to train and the goals were built around getting them to train. We are in a place now were that just does not cut it anymore. The reality is, you have to train if you want to get better. We have the running goals physical fitness goals and navigational goals because that's what we think the juniors out there can reach to, and in turn if those goals are met they will become better at orienteering and have greater success in competition. To be on the Standing team or JWOC team, training is required, its not a goal. That's a new approach but I think if US orienteering is going to move forward at all we have to realize that training is something you do to get better its not what your shooting for. A goal is something to reach for, training is how you get there. If training is the goal than its possible to fall short of the training expectations for each week. If its required their is no question about it and we can work with an individual who is struggling to meet that expectation through motivation, checking in, and ultimately asking if this is something the individual wants to be doing. Its tough but I think we can inspired people to be better if there is something expected of them if they have to rise up and work to accomplish their goals.

feet, give Erin's plan a few years and you'll no longer be winning US Champs. Also, have you ever tried doing a pull-up?

Erin, are there other ways you can measure upper body strength? Would some of these tests work as an alternate to the pull up? No one is saying you shouldn't train upper body strength; just how you measure it is in question. These alternates might solve the issue?

Thanks!
I love this pull-up discussion.

I have never done a pullup but now I will try to. Feet, I challenge you. Pullup contest at the next meet we're both at.

...and for juniors who love orienteering, but are not willing/able to meet the Standing Team requirements, there will be the Development Team.

I have found pull-ups easier to do when you grab the bar such that your palms are on the other side of the bar versus on the same side of the bar as you. (Just a hint for those that may not have done alot)

@Feet: My money is on Barb.

So is mine. Then I win either way.

Bob Turbyfill won a couple US Champs, too, and might have won more if they were easier to come by back then. And, I'm sure he could have done a fair bit of pull ups back then. What does that prove? No more and no less (as feet knows) than whether or not feet can do any or not.

In any case, yet more great stuff (and well put) from Erin.

I would be curious to see a more rigorous discussion of the explanatory power of pull ups on orienteering results, in the context of a multifactor model. I know what my expectations are. Perhaps an economist might do it?

Way way late to the party here!

Carl, that's a chin up, not a pull up. I can do a couple of those but no pull ups. Yet.

All I can add to the excellent discussion above is that it's kind of fun to have a goal that isn't based on running. You progress more quickly and it's exciting figuring out what your body can do.

Some of these athletes will be aiming for WOC2015. There's large areas of the long where they'll be running through deep spongey tussock grass and thick heather. In areas like this, without the strength side of things a 5 min mile on the track is almost useless.

Can I just add that for the first time since I moved here I'm excited and motivated by US Junior orienteering. Which is awesome.

I think it would be fun to see how well these core strength metrics correlate with orienteering success. At the US Team Trials, all competitors should be invited to a pushup/situp/pullup showdown. My guess is that there will be a correlation with orienteering ability, but not a strong correlation. I wouldn't be surprised if the correlation were smaller than the correlation with weight or BMI. I don't know. It would be fun to find out.

Self-reporting also has problems. I had a pull-up bar in the doorway of my bedroom when I was a teenager, and did many pullups (not necessarily consecutively). There are many things that can make a difference: width of hand placement, direction of hand placement, kipping (i.e., swinging your body vs lifting dead weight) are good examples. Someone who thinks they can't do any might be able to do some if they only knew the right techniques. More importantly, there is a difference in how high you can lift. A pull-up that is a chin-up is significantly harder than a pull-up that is slightly less than a chin-up. And a chin-up where the chin clears is significantly harder than a chin-up to chin level. And a chin up where the chin clears and the chin is flat is significantly harder than a chin up where the neck is extended and the chin is on an angle. The difference in difficulty is logarithmic, not linear. Try doing them each these different ways, and you will discover the difference in difficulty. A person who says he can do 10 pullups might not be able to do more than a couple of pullups the way someone else is trying to do a pullup.

Anyone who has done situps or pushups knows there are, similarly, different ways to do them too. I can probably do three times as many pushups if my butt is above the level of my shoulders than if I keep my back and legs in a plane. So, let's have a showdown, where everyone does it the same way, at the same time! How about as a fundraiser for the junior team?

Correlation: might be good to look not only at orienteering success (particularly in rugged, green terrain), but also injury rate...

@dawg: Would the funds be raised from the participants or their audience (or both)? :-)

I have nothing of value to add to this discussion, but I feel like telling a story about a pushup competition.

When I was in college, one of the dorm social events was a "dating game", and I was to be one of the guy contestants. I forget what some of the rounds were, but one of them was how quickly you could open a Starburst wrapper with your mouth. I remember dominating that one. Anyway, after it was all said and done, there was an exact tie between me and this other tall, scrawny kid. So the host asked the audience how we should settle the tie, and someone yelled out "pushup contest!"

And we both kinda looked at each other with a look of terror. We were not pushup guys, and here we had to do it in front of a bunch of people. I remember that we both did at least one ugly pushup, maybe two or three. I just remember that we both petered out at the exact same time, and we exchanged a glance that said "yeah, we're pretty much done." So we both agreed to end the pushup contest in a tie, and settle the tie like scrawny dudes should: with rock-paper-scissors. Best of three, of course.

When I was in 9th grade, my Civics teacher used to bet on sports with the students. Nominally the bet was a "coke", but what actually changed hands was a quarter. I think someone must have told him this was inappropriate, so he switched to pushups. Around this time I was willing to join in on the betting. The first time, we won, and the teacher had to do the pushups. But the second time, he won, and each of us who had bet against him had to do them. I remember Jimmy McHugh, one of the stars of the basketball team, going ahead of me and struggling to do 30 pathetic pushups (probably with a rest in the middle). When it was my turn, I could tell that everybody felt sorry for the scrawny nerd kid who was clearly out of his element. I dropped and hammered out 30 perfect pushups with no trouble at all. I may have been a lightweight, but at least I was lightweight.

For a junior fundraiser, I say we get as many competitors at the US Champs to participate as want to in the pullup/pushup/situp competition. Separate men's and women's divisions. Maybe separate junior, elite, and master divisions. Then three different competitions: pullups, pushups and situps. People place bets ($1 each?) on who they think will win in each competition. That's 2x3x3=18 competitions. Could be done in about 60 minutes. If 50 people bet $1 per competition on 10 competitions each, that's $500. All proceeds go to the junior team. When done, compare the competition results to the orienteering results of the same competitors, and see what kind of correlation there might be between core strength and results. Could be fun and interesting at the same time. (Someone has to supply a chin-up bar.)

OK.

Moreau playground may have a suitable chin-up bar, but I'm not sure. Something to do while waiting for Middle distance awards?

Don't know about the "other" US Champs location. ;-)

We had an informal pull-up show-down at the last team trials, using a tree branch. I am lacking pictures.

After that it was stump throwing, shot-put style.

Since today is Robbie Burns Day, I'm compelled to point out that it's actually called caber tossing and not surprisingly, given our stronger ties to Britain, the Canadian orienteers have an edge. Here's an early video of Mike Smith in action.