Discussion: thanks

thanks Igor and UKR for all the work for the 25th TT.

Sounds like it was a great event - sorry we were out of town!

There has been some Micro-O in a couple of Salomon Dontgetlost.ca Raid The Hammer adventure runs, but this was probably the first Canadian event that was entirely Micro-O.

sorry, Bash, but Salomon Dongetlost.ca Raid The Hammer never was and would be an orienteering event, it is adventure event/runs. If there were the part of race called Micro_O during Hammer, it does not mean that it is Micro-Orienteering.
From Last year Hammer I do remember that part, but it is not even close to the real Micro-O. I am very sorry, you could not make to Turkey Trot and did not expeariance the real Micro-Orienteering course. I hope UKR club would make it again next year.

Nick, I have video of you running Micro-O, I would to contact TOC and try to upload them to their website! :)

Orion, you weren't there in the year when RTH included an entire section of Micro-O, but I'm sure you would have done very well. It's surprising that you don't recognize that the sport of adventure running includes some orienteering - just as the sport of orienteering includes some trail running, and Nick's winter adventure races include some ski orienteering. I hate to see someone your age building such tight boundaries around the sport because the fact is, if the sport of orienteering is going to survive here and thrive into the future (I'm talking about YOUR future), then we will need to expand our horizons and be creative and open-minded. As an example, I considered the Why Just Run Adventure Course event on Toronto Island to include orienteering even though it required other skills - but some people wouldn't agree. If you're not worried about the sport's future, look at the small number of non-Gator registrants for the Ontario Orienteering Champs - that's scary.

Bash, I hope that MY FUTURE would include orienteering like it should be, not in adventure style. In my opinion, adventure races like Hammer and WJR are making orienteering less interesting by using only special orienteering skills (like line orienteering, google map orienteering, long trails orienteering). Classic orienteering itself is a mix of all possiable navigation skills. Last year Hammer had a good orienteering area in the end, but it is after 20 km (3 hours run), and it was about safe routes not the best ones. I do understand that through adventure racing, it is easier to bring new people/runners into at least some kind of orienteering (and make money), but i do not think it is helping classic orienteering. In fact, number of adventure runs increase and orienteering races decrease for last few years. It is because people/clubs, who use to organize orienteering events, had started to organize adventure ones (reasons: money and less organizational problems).
As for Ontario Champs, Gators are not lucky this year with Tero's trip to North America. There are too many events, which were advertised long time ago, were Tero is participating and they are more interesting for people than Ontario Champs.

Orion, if a vibrant classic orienteering scene is the future you want, then roll up your sleeves because you're going to need to devote many, many volunteer hours to the sport - as a lot of us already do. If you know of ways to attract new people to the sport other than the creative ways that TOC, GHO and the Stars have been trying, then by all means, get out there and make it happen. There are many reasons that clubs are organizing fewer classic orienteering events, but a couple of reasons are that:
- attendance is low, which makes it hard to cover costs, and
- each event is a lot of work for volunteers who are already heavily burdened.

Nobody is "making money". Some clubs are lucky enough not to lose money, but that extra cash goes right back into mapping, school programs, new equipment, etc. So there is no profit motive - it's more like "sink or swim".

Anyone can be a critic. It's considerably more difficult - and useful - to develop and implement solutions to tough problems. You clearly have a lot of enthusiasm, and I look forward to seeing you work toward the improvement and expansion of the sport.

Bash, I just saying that I like orienteering in the way it is done in Europe, and everyone is developing this sport as much as it is possiable. I do like Hammer and I would race it in November 8, but if we would have orienteering event in the same weekend, I would better do orienteering (that was my point).
As to money, Clubs do try to make money, and it is fact. I did not say that someone is making money for living through orienteering. We all know that orienteering needs investment all the time.
Back to the main topic, MIcro-O, I still believe that whatever was used during adventure runs is onlya part of orienteering and cannot take a credit as the individual event. I believe that Micro-O, in the way it was in Turkey Trot, would raise participation just because it is short, fast, fun and the main factor, visual (for runners and spectators).

>I like orienteering in the way it is done in Europe, and everyone is developing this sport as much as it is possible.

I agree 100%. And that is why we introduced the adventure run because we based it on the long-O team concept of mountain marathons and mountain orienteering. The adventure runs have been very good for Orienteering Ontario as many of our OOA board members were in part introduced to orienteering through the adventure runs. The money GHO makes from the race is used to make maps for our 800+ school kids race and for larger races like GLOF (which always lose money).

Unfortunately the amount of work to organize a traditional orienteering race on high quality maps is difficult and time consuming. But it is good to see people introducing NEW(ER) forms of the sport like WJR, adventure running, MTB-O (and yes micro-O as well) as a way to show off how great the sport is.

GHO has deliberately kept our adventure runs as team races to encourage people to race solo in orienteering events. There is a growing demand for this. BUT i think this is where Ontario clubs need to be strategic. Find out what traditional forms of O will be most interesting. I suspect urban sprint, middle and ultra-long would be of high interest.

I don't think you will be disappointed in next year's GLOF as GHO is investing A LOT of money to re-map the entire Dundas Valley to modern standards. I think that shows a pretty damn good committment to the traditional form of our sport.

I considered the Why Just Run Adventure Course event on Toronto Island to include orienteering even though it required other skills..

yeah i remember one extra skill. was fun though..

Hammer, I do like the way how GHO introducing orienteering to the kids. I hope some of them would stay and would join Canadian National team with time. It is the same method as clubs in Europe are practicing. For this reason, I am saying to TOC to be involved in Scouts activities more often.

In my opinion, WJR should be more like orienteering events. GHO has adventure runs (they are the best in this with Hammer and Raid), plus they have good maps and proffesionals to organize such an event.

Unfortunately, hammer, it looks like, everyone is trying to copy your work and your ideas, and they do not see another way to present orienteering to the new people. I believe that it should be a club (like UKR with Turket Trot and Gators by organizing Ontario Champs), which would do orientering in a traditional way. And in the end we all would win.

I agree 100% with you Igor. A long urban orienteering race 8-10K on sprint standard maps in parks, campus, streets, etc. like is done in London or Venice could be good.

By the way...
GHO deliberately hosts the adventure runs in the early spring, late autumn and winter so that the best times to O are still available.

Another thought...
Turn the Turkey Trot into a day of sprints and an ultra-long race. Make it a little different BUT still real orienteering. A lot of the same thing isn't good.

Nobody has tried to sell real ultra-long O in Ontario. AND nobody has tried to offer a real urban race....yet

So there is the challenge for you...

p.s. 150+ people already registered for RTH.